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Roman Republic: Res publica Romana • View topic - Bylaws of the Collegium

Bylaws of the Collegium

The purpose of this collegium is to establish a group for those interested in ancient philosophy and a place where philosophical discussion and study may take place. Join at: http://romanrepublic.org/civitas/joint_ ... sophiae/42

Moderators: Marca Marcia, Gaius Flavius Aetius, Paullus Aemilius Gallus, Aula Flavia Philippa

Re: Bylaws of the Collegium

Postby Gaius Florius Lupus » Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:12 am

Salve Seneca!

I think even after the or during the vote grammatical and spelling errors can be corrected, since it does not change the meaning of the text. Thanks for the correction! This was very sloppy by me.
It is not absolutely necessary that both collegia have exactly the same template for the bylaws. As said before, we would rather have a simple majority being able to change the bylaws, while the Collegium Latinum text requires three quarters.

The quality of the text will not get better, if we allow for more time. All mistakes that a person spots can be written in one single post. And every argument that can be made about the actual content of the text can easily be made within one week. The thread about the bylaws has many days of inactivity. So the available time is certainly not the problem. Not even the available time of one week was fully used.
The real reason for requesting more time for debate is not that the amount of work is too much for one week or that not all arguments can be made in this timeframe, it is the unwillingless to come to a decision.

Nevertheless it is your right to vote with ANTIQVO and you have given valid reasons for your objection.

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Re: Bylaws of the Collegium

Postby Lucia Horatia Adamas » Sat Jun 03, 2017 7:28 am

L. Horatia Adamas C. Florio Lupo C. Livio Senecae omnibusque S.P.D.

I am feeling a bit better now, and have just gone over the proposed regula, and added interleaved translations into English. It isn't perfect, but each time around, things get a little better. When I correct papers, I seem to find more errors each time I look them over…

Will paste the latest below. Hope the colors remain; the latest corrections are in blue, and the English in green. [Arrgh, they didn't copy! Grrrrrrrrr!!!! It's too late to fix that; will try to attach it].

====

Constitutio Collegii Philosophici

A. Rationes

I. Hac constitutione Collegium Philosophicum ut collegium culturale Rei Publicae Romanae conditum est.

[Here we might want to specify that this is the correct name]

[By this constitution, the Collegium Philosophicum is founded as a cultural collegium of the Roman Republic].



II. Esto ratio et propositum huius collegi ut locum quaestionibus philosophicis disceptandis praebeat atque institutionem de scholis philosophicis classicis, praecipué de illis Platonis, Epicuri, et disciplinae Stoicae propaget.

[Let the motive and purpose of this Collegium be that it provide a place for discussing philosophical questions and hands down teaching about the schools of Plato, Epicurus, and the Stoic system].


B. Collegae

III. Omnibus civibus Romanis liceat collegae Collegi Philosophici fieri.

[Alternatively, Liceto omnibus civibus Romanis participare Collegi Philosophici / Participanto omnes cives Romani Collegi Philosophici].

[All Roman citizens shall be allowed to participate in the Collegium Philosophicum].


IV. Collega utri magistro approbandus est.
V. Omnes collegae, qui cives optimo iure sunt, suffragium habent.

Habento suffragium omnes participes / collegae qui cives ‘optimo jure’ sunt.

[All participants / colleagues who are citizens ‘optimo jure’ shall have the right to vote].



C. Regimen

VI. Duo magistri super Collegium magisterium collegialiter habent, et invicem vetare possunt.

Habento duo magistri collegialiter magisterium Collegi et invicem vetanto.

[Two magistri shall hold the office of magister of the Collegium, and shall have the right to veto one another].


Primi inter pares sunt, pro collegio loquuntur,

Sunto primi inter pares; pro Collegio loquuntor,


[They shall be first among equals; they shall speak on behalf of the Collegium]


deliberationibus eius praesentant,

deliberationibus ejus praesunto [I assume you mean ‘be present’ by ‘praesentant;’ if not, please let me know what you intended].


[{Taking ‘praesentant’ as ‘they shall be present} They shall be present in its deliberations]

suffragia irrita decernunt. Itaque magistri moderatores Fori Collegii Philosophici sunt.

decernunto suffragia irrita esse, nam magistri moderatores Fori Collegi Philosophici sunt.


[They shall determine {whether} votes are invalid, for the magistri are the moderators of the Forum of the Collegium Philosophicum].


VII. Suffragatores potestatem legiferam communiter habent.
VIII. Magistri maiori parti eligendi sunt unum annum quod kalendis Ianuarii incipit.

Alternatively, ‘magistri a majore parte unum annum Kalendis Januariis incipientem eliguntor.


[The magistri shall be chosen by the greater part {of the members} for one year beginning on the Kalends of January].

i. Si alterum munus vacat, alius magister collegium convocet et comitia habeat.

Si magister munus suum negleget vel deponat vel disappareat, alter magister collegium convocato et comitia habeto.

[{Here I have added a bit} If a magiser neglects his / her duty / office or resigns or disappears, the other magister shall convene the collegium and hold elections].


ii. Si ambo munera simul vacant, unus quisque suffragator convocare et comitia habere potest.

Unus quisque suffragator collegium convocare et comitia habere potest. [There is no D.O. above…]

[Each and every voter can convoke the collegium and hold elections].



iii. Si collegium et magistris et suffragatoribus careat, Aedili Curuli tradetur

[traditor]


usque ad statum reficiendum.

ut status reficiatur.


[If the Collegium lacks both magistri and voters, it shall be handed over to the curule aedile so that its status might be restored].

D. Convocationes

IX. Uter magister collegium convocare potest. Haec convocatio annuntianda est minime una septimana antea.

Liceto utri magistro Collegium convocare, quae convocatio illi uná quidem septimaná antea annuntianda est.


[Each [of the two] magistri may convene the Collegium, which convocation must be announced by him / her at least one week in advance].


X. Aliquis collega magistris non dissentientibus collegium convocare potest. Haec convocatio annuntianda est minime una septimana antea.

Liceto uni cuique collegae / participi Collegium convocare, quae convocatio…[as above]

[Any member may convene the collegium if the magistri do not disagree]


XI. Aliquis collega optimo iure coram convocatione collegii rem ferre potest.

Uni cuique collegae statum ‘optimo jure’ habenti rem ferre coram convocatione potest.

Any colleague who holds ‘optimo jure’ status may propose a matter before / in the presence of the convocation.


XII. Aliquid propositum collegi et erogatio pecuniae, praeter alio

Alibi, fortasse

providetur, parte maiore suffragiorum indiget ut valeat.


[Any proposal of the collegium, and {any} request for funds, except as provided elsewhere, needs the majority of the votes in order to prevail]. {This may require more fixing in the Latin; Necesse est alicui proposito collegi et erogationi pecuniariae obtinere ut valeat}].

E. Moderatio

XIII. Contentiones

Perhaps better: ‘rixae’


inter collegas privatim placandae sunt, vel parti maiori, magistris intercedentibus, si necesse sit.
XIV. Ob nefas contra rationes constitutionemve collegii, vel morem maiorem,

Correction: majorum, genitive plural, and not declinable in this phrase.

Addam: ‘vel indolem bellicosam’ or something similar.


Quarrels among the members are to be placated privately, or, by the majority, with the magistri interceding, if need be]

pars dodrans suffragiorum collegam expellere potest.

[three quarters of the votes can expel a member]

XV. Collega expulsus adversus talem expulsionem ad Aedilem vel Curulem vel Plebeium, si plebeius sit,

May someone take one’s grievances to a tribune, too?

appellare potest.

[An expelled member may appeal to the Curule or Plebeian Aedile {if s/he is plebeian} against such an expulsion]

F. Dissolutio

XVI. Collegium cunctis collegis consentientibus dissolvi potest. Si collegium sic dissolvatur, denarii sui Aerario Populi Romani dentur.

dantor

[The collegium may be dissolved if all members agree. If the collegium is dissolved in this fashion, its denarii shall be given to the treasury of the Roman People].

G. Emendationes

XVII. Maior pars suffragiorum hanc regulam emendare potest.

The majority of the votes may amend this regula.


I hope I have done all corrections properly. Please correct any mistakes!

Not so much mistakes as matters of style and better word usage. I have changed many of the verbs to the future imperative, which is the normal form for this type of writing. Not all verbs have them, however….

Valete!

Vale, et valete!
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Re: Bylaws of the Collegium

Postby Gaius Florius Lupus » Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:49 am

Salvete collegae!

I would like to thank Horatia Adamas for the extensive corrections. I would suggest that this should be the final version, which will be submitted to the Aediles. Although the meaning of the text was not changed and mostly the style was affected, I tink it is justified to extend the voting period for another week to give every member of the collegoum the opportunity to reconsider his vote, in case he does not agree with the corrections done by Horatia. We will have the final results therefore in one week.
Votes that have been cast still count, if they are not changed.

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Re: Bylaws of the Collegium

Postby Publius Sextius Laevus » Sat Jun 03, 2017 6:01 pm

Salvete Omnes

As allowed by the moderator, until the details of the Latin and English versions are settled I am swiching my vote to ANTIQVO. I reserve the right to switch my vote again once the details are settled. The moderator should wait until these details are settled, then specify a specific date & time on which voting will end. Thes bylaws will set a precedent for subsequent collegium bylaws, so it is important to do the best we can on this now. As quoted from Augustus by our Seneca recently 'That which is done well enough, is done soon enough.'

My understanding of Membership has been as follows:

III. Membership (Collega, -ae m/f 'colleague') in the collegium is only open to RR Citizens (=Only RR Citizens may apply for membership. A non-citizen may not be a member of the collegium.)
IV. The application for Membership in the Collegium must be approved by either moderator (Magister/Magistra) for the citizen to be a member.
V. Only Members with RR Citizen status of 'Optimo Iure' may vote.

This understanding does not seem to coincide with the ongoing updates.

These bylaws do not and need not address collegium forum read/write permissions. Currently any RR Citizen may post to the Collegium Forum, and anyone on the internet may read the posts.

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Re: Bylaws of the Collegium

Postby Gaius Florius Lupus » Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:39 am

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Re: Bylaws of the Collegium

Postby Publius Sextius Laevus » Sun Jun 04, 2017 5:12 am

Salve Flori Lupe

I was responding to the alternative edits of Adamas:
III. ​[All Roman citizens shall be allowed to participate in the Collegium Philosophicum].
V. ​[All participants / colleagues who are citizens ‘optimo jure’ shall have the right to vote].

'until'? Is Voting allowed until the being or end of Saturday, Rome time?

In VI, consider changing 'deliberationibus eius praesentant' to 'deliberationes collegio praeponere' - to put deliberations before the collegium.

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Re: Bylaws of the Collegium

Postby Gaius Florius Lupus » Sun Jun 04, 2017 6:36 pm

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Re: Bylaws of the Collegium

Postby Publius Sextius Laevus » Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:59 pm

Salvete Omnes

Here are two claifications to consider. The first clarifies that citizens must apply for membership:

III. Omnibus civibus Romanis qui Collega Collegii Philosophici velle utri Magistro orandus sunt.
[To all Roman Citizens who wish to be a Colleague of the Collegium Philosophicum to either Magister must apply.]

This second clarification adds the Latin equivalent to the already stated English phrase "if the magistri do not disagree":

X. Liceto nisi utri magistro recusare uni cuique collegae collegium convocare, quae convocatio illi una quidem septimana antea annuntianda est.
[Any member may convene the collegium if the magistri do not disagree, which convocation must be announced by him at least one week in advance.]

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Re: Bylaws of the Collegium

Postby Lucia Horatia Adamas » Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:15 am



L. Horatia Adamas P. Sextio Lævo C. Florio Lupo omnibusque S.P.D.

I am less than thrilled with the word 'collega' for a member of a group, but in checking the unabridged lexicon, I found a better term: 'collégárius,' which means 'a fellow member of a collegium.' 'Colléga' really means something more like a co-worker. Perhaps someone could substitute that throughout the text.

Indeed, the membership issue is a bit hazy to me, plus I have yet to receive a satisfactory explanation of 'optimo jure' status. Improving Lævus' Latin, 'Omnibus civibus Romanis volentibus collegarii Collegi Philosophici fieri uter magister rogandus est.' We could also switch the word order and have 'uter magister' at the beginning, but either works. Literally translated, this means 'either magister must be asked by all citizens wishing to become members of the Collegium Philosophicum.' 'Oro' is not the best verb here, and the participle 'volentibus' is nicer than the infinitive 'velle.' We could also turn this around and say 'Omnes cives Romani volentes collegarii Collegi Philosophici fieri utrum magistrum rogare debento. 'All Roman citizens wishing to become members of the Collegium Philosophicum shall request [admission] from either magister.'

The second clarification is better as 'Liceto unicuique collegario collegium convocare nisi utri magistro displiceat.'
'It shall be permitted to each and every member to summon the collegium unless this does not suit either magister. '

Please note that alternate word orders and translations of the Latin are possible, at least in some instances. The future imperative is normal in such documents, but some verbs lack them; when present, they are often translated as 'shall,' in the third person, such as 'the accused shall appear on court on the first of the month…'

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Re: Bylaws of the Collegium

Postby Lucia Horatia Adamas » Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:05 am



L. Horatia Adamas C. Florio Lupo P. Sextio Lævo omnibusque S.P.D.

Iterum raptim; nox provectior est, et mox cubitura sum. Die Lunæ, ad medicum novum; die Martis,
ad veterem adjutricem medicæ absentis...

I would like to see a completely finished text presented to the group for a contio of a defined length before we start voting. It is not fair to the Latinless legions to be presented with a translation just before voting, let alone during voting. As a result, we are continuing to receive emendations. I wrote the translation and cleaned the text up somewhat in the wee hours of the morning and while suffering from iatrogenic ailments, so there are bound to be some errors and some necessary clarifications. The matter of membership seems to be specified in two different ways; I merely translated what was set before me and tried to improve the Latin. If I were writing this ab initio, chances are I would have done it differently.

Part of Lævus' objections seem to be that I used the word 'participate' rather than 'become a member' or the like. When one registers for a course, we use the words 'immatriculare' and 'immatriculatio,' but these don't appear to be the right words for becoming a member of a collegium / sodalitas. We might say 'omnes cives volentes se cum collegio jungere,' too, if that seems better. One of the chief errors of Latin students, however, is translating too literally; being a grown-up, I exercise a little more freedom. Those with Latin backgrounds may acquire greater fluency by studying the Assimil text of Desessard, and even more by taking the course, especially the accelerated course.

BTW, about spelling: Until the Augustan Age, the -ius and -ium nouns of the second declension used a single -i in the genitive singular ending, not two. Only after Augustus was this addition made. My HS Latin text author, Jenney, spelled these words with one i, and so do many editors of Cicero. Some modern Latinists use the four-way distinction in spelling Latin, in which consonantal and vocalic i are written with different letters; j for the former, and i for the latter; consonantal u and vocalic u are distinguished by separate letters, v for the consonantal form, and u for the vocalic one. Those who use the two-way distinction of the ancients differentiate only u and i, but tend to use V in uppercase for both consonantal and vocalic u. Italians use a three way distinction unknown to the Romans, and separate u and v while using i for both vocalic and consonantal i. The latter has made its way into the RC church and many Latin texts, but it is not a product of proper differentiation of sounds.

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