Lack of Democracy

The social and political heart of the respublica community

Moderators: Publius Iunius Brutus, Lucius Aurelius Curio, Titus Flavius Severus, Marcus Flavius Celsus, Tiberia Salvia Alba

Lack of Democracy

Postby Gaius Florius Lupus » Fri May 10, 2019 1:23 pm

Salvete Quirites!

I do not like how the reforms are handled here. All big decisions are made by secret committees without previous public debate and the insignificant details are submitted to vote.
A republic should work the other way around. Big decisions should be made by the people after a punlic debate and the details are later worked out by some experts with the necessary skills.

Now soneone has decided to reorganize the collegia and we just get to decide the names, while all the suggestions are of poor Latin and the majority of the citizens lack the necessary language skills to judge it. With Horatia Adamas we have an expert Latinist among us who could easily made the translation, if the comitia had decided that there is a need for reorganization.

The collegia have to grow naturally, formed by citizens with the same interest. They cannot be imposed from the top. We should just have removed the inactive collegia and leave the active ones in peace allowing them to develop naturally.

Valete!
Florius Lupus
User avatar
Gaius Florius Lupus
 
Posts: 594
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:33 am
Location: Africa Magna

Re: Lack of Democracy

Postby Publius Iunius Brutus » Mon May 13, 2019 11:03 pm

Sal.

Valid concerns. The naming of the collegia will be put ultimately before experts.

Also the control of collegia and of the entire republic will be placed back in the traditional hands once reforms are made which will ensure long term viability of the RR.

Before hash criticism is levied I hope the reform process can run its course. Then any problems that arise (there will be some as nothing is perfect) we can address them ad hoc.

I can only speak for myself. But in helping to found and fund this organization my ultimate goal has always been to take a back seat as soon as the RR is safely self sustaining.
User avatar
Publius Iunius Brutus
Consul
Consul
Senator
Senator
Martis et Minervae Sacerdos
Martis et Minervae Sacerdos
Lictor Curiatus Magister
Lictor Curiatus Magister
Augur
Augur
 
Posts: 1744
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2014 5:54 am
Location: Pacifica Provincia

Re: Lack of Democracy

Postby Gaius Florius Lupus » Tue May 14, 2019 3:56 am

Ave Consul!

You should never take a back seat. Our Republic lives and dies with you. You are the expert of everything in regard to administration. just as Horatia Adamas is our expert on Latin, and Severus our expert in Sarmatian issues. And you have the ability to inspire and motivate the Republic.

This is what I meant. There are capable citizens with skills that makes them necessary in certain positions (e.g. tu, Brute) They have to work out the technical details. They cannot be elected, because nobody else has these skills. What needs to be democratic is the decision, which general direction the Republic should take. This is why the Comitia Curiata is undemocratic and should be dissolved. The citizens should make the decisions that are currently made in the CC and in the Senate. The debate should always be public and not secretly among the members of these committees or in private messages. Here we need more democracy.
We do not need democracy, when it comes to persons who have certain functions: webmaster, CFO, experts in Latin, admins, moderators. These are people who should not be elected, but appointed according to their skills. These are real-life necessities that cannot be done by just any candidate who happens to win an election.
However these people cannot know what the people want. This is why we need the Comitia. Currently and in the past decisions were simply pushed through by some inner circle, no matter what the people wanted. It was not properly discussed, whether or not we need a corporation. It was simply decided and done.
Currently the decision to have 5 consular tribunes and to reorganize the collegia is pushed through without a public debate, whether or not this makes sense. These are the decisions, where we need more democracy. But we do not need a vote about the names of the collegia or who will program the website. These are technical issues that are best resolved by experts on the matter.

If we want to inspire activity, we have to listen to the citizen first, afterwards it can be executed by some skilled specialists. At the moment things are the other way around. A decision is made without asking the citizens, if this is what they want. Then elections are held to choose some volunteers that are neither prepared for the task nor committed. This is why things fail and people lose interest.

Optime vale!
Florius Lupus
User avatar
Gaius Florius Lupus
 
Posts: 594
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:33 am
Location: Africa Magna

Re: Lack of Democracy

Postby Quintus Furius Camillus » Wed May 15, 2019 1:12 am

SALVE LUPE!

Notions of democracy are noble and should be followed. But when the ship of state is sinking beneath the waves it is time for some definitive action. The wise ancients knew this. As I see it the RR is in a state of a modified temporary dictatorship. I say modified as the bylaws allow the citizens to toss out the Comitia Curiata (the "dictators") and also we are still having elections on things.

I am okay with this temporary state if we enter the autumn in a better situation because of it. Considering the alternative you propose I do not see us being in a good position if we voted on every mater in an assembly. It would be 2025 before we would be done the job...

VALE!
User avatar
Quintus Furius Camillus
Senator
Senator
 
Posts: 312
Joined: Fri May 06, 2016 8:50 pm

Re: Lack of Democracy

Postby Quintus Iulius Symphorianus » Thu May 16, 2019 8:53 pm

Lupus, the citizens of the Republic voted their approval of the temporary measures every step of the way. Nothing was done non-democratically: the Comitia Curiata voted to institute the measures, as is their prerogative. The Senate debated and agreed on a list of candidates for the new offices, and this list was presented to the citizenry for approval or rejection. The Comitia Centuriata then voted to approve that list so overwhelmingly that the Consular Tribunes can -- and should -- rightly claim to have been given a popular mandate.

Nothing there indicates a lack of democracy. This isn't an Athenian revivalist group; when we engage in democracy we do it through the legal assemblies rather than opening the floor to mob rule.
Moribus antiquis stat res romana virisque. -- Ennius
Romanitas and pietas is not an RPG. -- L. Metilius Niger

Need a website for your province/collegium/societas? Do allow me to help!
User avatar
Quintus Iulius Symphorianus
 
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2016 6:50 am
Location: Prov. Virginia

Re: Lack of Democracy

Postby Gaius Florius Lupus » Fri May 17, 2019 9:45 am

Salvete!
In our case we do not need democracy in order to limit government power, but to find out what the citizens want and how we can increase activity and interest in the Republic.
Do you really think the general sentiment was: "Oh, if we only had some consular tribunes, then it all would be so much more inspiring"?
Valete!
User avatar
Gaius Florius Lupus
 
Posts: 594
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:33 am
Location: Africa Magna

Re: Lack of Democracy

Postby Quintus Iulius Symphorianus » Fri May 17, 2019 5:08 pm

...what general sentiment? Prior to the reforms there was no general sentiment because there was, effectively, no citizenry. Nobody cares and this place was quiet as the grave -- beyond a handful of people bickering about how to alleviate the rot. We couldn't have had a vigorous public debate on this even if we wanted to, because we lack a vigorous public even still.

That's why these reforms have been instituted (again, by democratic vote) -- because hopefully by the time we no longer need them the Roman Republic will have gained a semblance of activity and discussion.
Moribus antiquis stat res romana virisque. -- Ennius
Romanitas and pietas is not an RPG. -- L. Metilius Niger

Need a website for your province/collegium/societas? Do allow me to help!
User avatar
Quintus Iulius Symphorianus
 
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2016 6:50 am
Location: Prov. Virginia

Re: Lack of Democracy

Postby Gaius Florius Lupus » Sat May 18, 2019 11:14 am

Salve!
And how has this situation improved through this top-down reform?
It has not, as you admitted yourself. This is what I mean. The citizens should have been asked first, what they want, if we want to inspire them to activity.
Vale!
User avatar
Gaius Florius Lupus
 
Posts: 594
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:33 am
Location: Africa Magna

Re: Lack of Democracy

Postby Quintus Iulius Symphorianus » Sat May 18, 2019 3:47 pm

Gaius Florius Lupus wrote:Salve!
And how has this situation improved through this top-down reform?
It has not, as you admitted yourself. This is what I mean. The citizens should have been asked first, what they want, if we want to inspire them to activity.
Vale!

Lupus we just now implemented the reforms. That's like putting a cake in the oven, taking it out after four minutes, and then complaining it didn't bake properly.
Moribus antiquis stat res romana virisque. -- Ennius
Romanitas and pietas is not an RPG. -- L. Metilius Niger

Need a website for your province/collegium/societas? Do allow me to help!
User avatar
Quintus Iulius Symphorianus
 
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2016 6:50 am
Location: Prov. Virginia


Return to Main Forum

cron