Salvete new citizens!

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Re: Salvete new citizens!

Postby Lucia Horatia Adamas » Wed May 31, 2017 6:09 am

Q. Volsco sal. L. Horatia Adamas

Generally, one is adopted by a family rather than adopting one…


My explanation was not intended solely for you. There are other people who receive these messages and / or read them onsite. Some are familiar with Latin, some are not, but even among those who do know Latin, nomenclature is not necessarily anything other than terra incognita. They might find my instruction on this topic interesting, even if you do not.


In order to reform the inaccurate nomenclature in another Roman group, I was included in a small mailing list which did research on Roman names. I provided some of the titles of relevant works in my message in response to yours in case anyone might be interested in learning the real truth about women's names and / or becoming more aware of genuine Roman names. Vitorius does not appear to be one of them, sad to say. The site does have some misinformation, notably among praenomina. Those used in the classical period are included in both of my Latin grammars, and in some elementary Latin textbooks. One does not have to resort to scholarly tomes on nomenclature in order to find these. Other praenomina on this site are archaic at best, and really should not be allowed.


The general system of Roman names should be explained somewhere onsite, as it is in another Roman group. Romans employed a system called 'trianomina,' 'three names,' in which only 17 praenomina (first names, but used very differently from the method employed by English speakers) were allowed, and then only those used within one's clan, or one's family. The eldest son was given the father's first name, and other sons received other names used within the family or clan. Some of the praenomina were used solely within a family or a gens, and some were quite rare. Marcus and Lucius are rather common, but Mamercus isn't.


The clan name, or nomen, or gens-name, was the second part of the Roman name. It indicated a large kinship group. Thus, C. Julius Caesar belonged to the gens Julia, the Julia clan. Cicero belonged to the gens Tullia, the Tullia clan. The poet Vergil belonged to the gens Vergilia, the Vergilian clan, the poet Horace to the gens Horatia, etc., etc. [Once again, Latin, the Romance languages, German, Greek, Russian, and others, have grammatical genders, and adjectives must agree in gender and number with the word they modify. In English, we sometimes refer to ships, or cars, as 'she,' but since English lost its inherited genders and other grammatical niceties, the adjectives do not have to agree. They have but one form. In Latin, 'gens' is feminine, so the names of the gentes, which are in fact adjectives, must agree in gender and number, so males must change the gens-name to masculine].


The last part of the trianomina is the cognomen, which distinguishes branches of the large clan. These tend to be uncomplimentary, referring to a physical characteristic, or to an animal. Thus one finds 'Scaeva' and 'Scaevola,' 'lefthanded,' 'Dentatus,' 'toothy,' 'Strabo,' 'cross-eyed, 'squinty,' 'Verrucosus,' 'warty,' 'Mento,' 'one who has a long chin' [think Jay Leno], etc. 'Aper,' 'boar,' and names derived from those of other animals also appeared.


Pretend you are joining a Scottish-oriented society, and have to take a three-part Scottish name. You choose 'Angus' as your first name. You choose 'McGregor' as your clan name, the second part of your name. In order to distinguish yourself from other Angus McGregors, you choose a cognomen not used by any of the others by that name. Suppose you are heavily tattooed, but the other McGregors eschew that sort of thing. You might choose 'Pictus' ('painted') or the like. If you are a redhead, while the rest of the clan is brunet, you might choose 'Rufus,' 'red.' If you are exceptionally thin, you might choose 'Macro' or a similar name, such as 'Macer.' In antiquity, you wouldn't have a choice as these names are inherited, and refer to some distant ancestor's appearance, but in modern Roman groups, one can pick a suitable cognomen.


Overall, the Roman system is somewhat similar to selecting items from a Chinese menu: one from Column A, the praenomen; one from Column B, the clan name, or nomen, and one from Column C, the cognomen, to distinguish you (and ultimately, your family) from the other branches of the clan. The second and third parts of the name, the nomen and the cognomen, are inherited; the praenomen is given, but according to some of the rules I mentioned earlier. Names in various societies work differently. Ideally, one who wishes to join a Roman-based group should know about the trianomina; the details of nomenclature are another matter. Much of our information comes from the historical record, but much comes from inscriptions, and at least some from manuscripts; this field is highly specialized, and no one should be expected to know most of the details, just the outlines. One cannot, however, generalize that our system of a first, middle, and last name is used by "most" cultures; some use a single name, some have a surname derived from that of the father, and are named something like 'Olafsen' or 'Sigurdsdottir,' [names invented by yours truly] names which are not passed on to their offspring. Spaniards use the name of the father and the mother, which again seem not to be inherited. Some French people combine the first and middle names, and hyphenate them, viz. 'Jean-Luc.'

Regrettably, academic work cannot be condensed into posts on Gingritus (Twitter), and one should be grateful that someone has taken a considerable amount of time to explain such matters rather than complaining that information added to enhance the knowledge of other members was not helpful. Perhaps others found it interesting, or useful, or both. These are my last words on this topic to you. If others are interested, I shall expound further.

Valete.
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Re: Salvete new citizens!

Postby Paullus Aemilius Gallus » Wed May 31, 2017 11:16 pm

Lucia Horatia Adamas wrote:Q. Volsco sal. L. Horatia Adamas

...

Regrettably, academic work cannot be condensed into posts on Gingritus (Twitter), and one should be grateful that someone has taken a considerable amount of time to explain such matters rather than complaining that information added to enhance the knowledge of other members was not helpful. Perhaps others found it interesting, or useful, or both. These are my last words on this topic to you. If others are interested, I shall expound further.

Valete.


Salve Horatia,

Your posts and explanations are much appreciated! At least by me! Gratias.

Too bad that your last post here will be soon lost among other posts and forgotten. I wish a Censor/Moderator could copy and past it in another topic where it could be easily find again. Here? http://www.romanrepublic.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1691
or here? http://www.romanrepublic.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=2010

By the way, "Gingritus", nice find =)

Vale,
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Re: Salvete new citizens!

Postby Lucia Horatia Adamas » Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:59 am



L. Horatia Adamas Paullo Æmilio Gallo omnibusque bonæ voluntatis S.P.D.

Merci beaucoup! I suspected that others would be interested, but was put off by the less than gracious reply I received. I'm afraid that my French isn't as good as it was some years ago, before I suffered a long illness which wreaked havoc with Messrs. Broca and Wernicke, mais j'ai voulu dire que I would not respond further to the original poster. I can still read French, at least with a dictionary, but writing it is another matter.

Somewhere there is a list of the classical Roman praenomina which I posted some time ago; I believe it was 'stickied,' and should still be available. IIRC, that also contained further information on nomenclature. The spoken Latin courses I taught for several years require that the students assume Roman names, or Latinize their own names, so the creator of the courses provided extensive information on nomenclature, much of which I absorbed. I also have had long experience in strictly Roman nomenclature, an interesting and highly specialized subject dear to the hearts of the Finns (and some others).

Unfortunately, I am not responsible for 'gingritus' = Twitter; that was the lucky find of a more senior Latinist. I am on an international all-Latin mailing list which is populated by some of the best Latinists in the world, as well as Latin students, mine and those of others, and those as every skill level in between. In addition, there are two sites which offer the news in Latin (audio and written), YLE in Finland and one in Bremen, plus a third in written form only, so reading these helps enhance one's Latin vocabulary for things the Romans never had--or thought of. BTW, cell phone is 'gestabile' or 'mobile,' four syllables in the first of these, three in the second, and 'internet' is often rendered as 'interrete,' four syllables. The spoken Latin course I taught also was quite helpful in teaching some modern vocabulary and phraseology (B.C., however: before computers, as the text was written in the 1960s). Its title is Le Latin sans Peine, now retitled as Le Latin, both by Clément Desessard, and not to be confused with another Le Latin by a different author, I. Ducos-Filippi, who apparently is unfamiliar with Latin paradigms and makes many errors in her text. All are available from the publisher, Assimil, and from Amazon, mais pas à bon marché. However, the older French version is available online, and the sound files are as well, though the URLs for these are as stable as the visibility of the Cheshire cat (which is to say they are anything but fixed).

Merci aussi pour vos corrections des noms français…


Au revoir! Vale, et valete!
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Re: Salvete new citizens!

Postby Gaius Florius Lupus » Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:35 pm

Horatias, your explanations are very welcome.
What our newcomers have to understand is that the Roman name is the heart of Romanitas. For a Roman the name was like an ID card. It proved his citizenship and you could immediately tell his place in the Roman society from it.
The full Roman name was not just the trinomina but also included the name of the father, the grandfather and the tribe. So my full name would be Gaius Florius Alberti filius Alberti nepus tribu Falerna Lupus. The father and grandfather would of course have classical praenomina, not medieval ones, but of course I cannot just make up my father's name.
A Roman could tell from my name, in which tribus I vote, which family I belong, that I am a Plebeian (Although I am a patrician here in the Republic, Floria was a classical plebeian gens.) and that I would have been from an equestrian family, if I had been born 18 centuries earlier.
The name defines the Roman identity. This is why Horatia's explanations are so important and we should correct all errors in our current naming system.

Adoption was an essential legal procedure of high importance in ancient Rome. Emperors were mostly determined by adoption, not by birth. We should be very precise, when it comes to the rules of adoption. Many Romans had aquired their names from their former masters, if they had been slaves or from the Emperor (or general), if they had been auxiliary soldiers of barbarian origin. So adoption was more important than biological bloodline for the Romans.

Valete!
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Re: Salvete new citizens!

Postby Quintus Aurelius Vulscus » Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:40 pm

I realize the RR is round about a year old. However, I am sure that several folks here are more well versed in the history, of something that I am considering trivial such as names, and should have fixed this error so that folks like me dont make this "mistake". I have a general knowledge of Roman history. So, is the mistake mine? I would hardly say so. I was given 3 lists one for each part of the trinomial I selecet one name from each list. If information in one list is incorrect, how am I supposed to know this? Keep in mind I consider this a trivial matter, this is not something I would devote vast amouts of time studying. Seeing as how that is the case a gianormus explanation as to why its wrong serves no purpose. I would prefer it to be clearly and concisely given as a suggestion.
Coming from a Germanic background you had your name and your "last name" indicated who's son or daughter you were (i.e. Thor Odinnsson or Sigi Sifsdottir). This told others 2 about you, your name and a parents name.
When I saw the giant block of information on a subject I dont put much thought into my brain just shut off.

Nothing was meant to be irate or disrespectful.



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Re: Salvete new citizens!

Postby Gaius Curtius Philo » Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:26 pm

Currently in the Republic there are three ways to enter a Gens:
I) By registering oneself as part of that Gens when applying for citizenship
II) By requesting the Censores to transfer you to another Gens.
III) By adoption, which requires the agreement of the Censura, of the Gentile Assembly of that Gens (in case the Gens has an organized Assembly), of the Patres Familias of both parts involved and of the individuals in question. In this third option the person gains the full name of the adoptee + their old Gens name with an -ianus ending. They might retain their praenomen by agreeance of both parts. My adoptive father for example insisted that I maintained my praenomen Gaius.

Just some information for those interested.
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Re: Salvete new citizens!

Postby Lucia Horatia Adamas » Fri Jun 02, 2017 8:48 am



L. Horatia Adamas C. Florio Lupo omnibus bonæ voluntatis S.P.D.

Glad to hear that my explanations are welcome to you, Lupe! One's Roman name is indeed an expression of our Romanitas, and a key to one's standing within Roman society. [Clothing also marked social status, much as if all Romans were in the army--and indeed, there are references to the entire population being an exercitus, an army]. There is nothing trivial about nomenclature, or about historical fashion, or many other things that some consider insignificant. That judgment may work in some societies, but not in ancient Rome.

Gratias, too, for listing the form of the full Roman name, complete with filiation and other goodies. Unum erratum dactylographicum: nepos, nepotis, m., non 'nepus.' 'Albertus' seems reasonable to me…the Latinization of many names is very close to that of their modern-language form, but the name 'Giles' metamorphoses into 'Ægidius.' One of my students bore that first name…

For future reference, it might be wise to inform new members in particular that when people post academic material to mailing lists or fora in answer to a question, they are not responding only to the writer. They are addressing many persons of varying skills and interests, so they provide additional material, especially when dealing with such abstruse subjects. Those require a lot of explanation, not a Twitter-sized message. Nomenclature is not trivial at all (would you like to be named, say, 'Dog Poop')?

As for the content of the nomenclature lists, I do not have the authority to change anything, and moreover do not have the cybernetic skills. I am quite familiar with a complex Content Management System called 'Moodle,' which we use in our courses, and picked up some HTML as well as used to program in BASIC, but likely do not know enough to alter the content of these menus. As for their accuracy, my guess is that there were no senior Latinists here when the lists were created, certainly none skilled in nomenclature, so the cybernauts simply found some lists somewhere and used those. A similar situation occurred in another Roman group, but there research was done and edicta published on this topic. Inaccurate names were banished, and existing citizens were encouraged to change their inauthentic names. Many did so.

Indeed, no tiro should be expected to know what Roman names are acceptable, or much about the system governing them, but one should have seen the names of ancient Romans, and at the very least wondered about that second name; to some, it would look like a middle name--but it isn't. Bottom line is that these matters are handled differently in different societies; one cannot assume that everyone has the same customs as does one's own country.

Vale, et valete!
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Re: Salvete new citizens!

Postby Titus Flavius Severus » Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:29 pm

Severus Cen. sal.

A warm welcome to the citizens approved today! Please join me in greeting,

Octavius Flavius Cursor - No province assigned (Singapure)
Marcus Albius Maximus of Britannia
Appius Romilius Ruga of Alta Planitia


Current Population of the Res Publica: 465

New citizens and friends, please tell us about your interests! Also, it is normal at this point to have many questions. Please ask your questions here, many citizens will be happy to assist you! You may also review the New Citizen Guide here: http://romanrepublic.org/bibliotheca/wi ... tizen.html

NOTICE:

The prior backlog of applications has been processed. All applications received as of June 5 have been processed. If you applied before June 5 and did not hear a response please contact the Censores. Thank you for your patience.
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Re: Salvete new citizens!

Postby Titus Flavius Severus » Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:37 pm

Salvete,

I especially want to greet Octavius Flavius Cursor, who chose the Gens Flavii as his modern family. Flavia is Greatest family of Аntiquity that has not lost its greatness and power in the present Roman Republic. Greetings to you frater, if you have a desire to join the daily life of the Republic or you want to benefit your Gens, among our brothers and sisters, do not hesitate to write to me in a personal message.

Vale bene,
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Re: Salvete new citizens!

Postby Titus Flavius Severus » Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:53 am

Severus Cen. sal.

A warm welcome to the citizen approved today! Please join me in greeting,

Septima Erucia Praetextata of Nova Gallia



Current Population of the Res Publica: 466

New citizens and friends, please tell us about your interests! Also, it is normal at this point to have many questions. Please ask your questions here, many citizens will be happy to assist you! You may also review the New Citizen Guide here: http://romanrepublic.org/bibliotheca/wi ... tizen.html

NOTICE:

The prior backlog of applications has been processed. All applications received as of June 9 have been processed. If you applied before June 9 and did not hear a response please contact the Censores. Thank you for your patience.
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