COMITIA TRIBUTA SESSION V - IN SESSION (19 NOV - 04 DEC)

[Quintus Iulius Symphorianus]

Quintus Iulius Symphorianus, you are wrong, objectively speaking, you should not have interfered in this discussion until you understood the basic principles of the work of the institutions of the Republic.In this your phrase clearly shows that you do not understand what you criticize, but continue to criticize

Right, right. Do go on.

If you had bothered to learn more about the Republic, you would have learned that there have long been collegia performing state functions, here's one for example: http://romanrepublic.org/civitas/joint_ ... reasury/39

Although, following your words, you are a fundamental opponent of the foundations of this Republic. Do you know why? The fact is that in the future two collegia should be created: the Pontifex Collegium and the Augur Collegium. As in ancient Rome, these colleges will be the same foundations of the state, and will obey the same law on collegia. But these collegia, especially the Collegium of the Pontiffs, will receive exclusive powers as an organ of the state. Will you oppose them?

If I had bothered to learn more about the Republic? How adorable. In the meantime I feed the need to point out that the Collegium Pontificum and Collegium Augurum are -- unlike the Legio -- intrinsic to the Republic itself. Reestablishing those particular collegia are no small part of why the Republic was founded in the first place; as can be evidenced by a simple reading of the Declaration which birthed the Republic. If the Republic were similarly predicated upon the establishment of a functioning reenactment legion then things would be different. I would absolutely support a version of the Lex Flavia. But... it isn't. The Legio is not an integral, intrinsic part of the Republic and was never designed to be; therefore it doesn't get cut the same slack.

With this phrase you showed that you continue to escalate the conflict. From the example of the Seneca quaestor, you did not draw any conclusions.

You say so, because you do not know the current situation. However, smart people would not throw such words and judgments. Firstly, you should go to the section of collegia and see how many people are in the 11th Legion, then you should have looked at how many people are in other collegia. It would be nice to remember that if you going to an elected office, you should be interested in the opinion of the people, and you in your own words show disrespect to a significant number of voters - people from the 11th Legion. But in addition to the 11th Legion, there is also the Factio Russata, this is in general the most active political force of the Republic. At the beginning of your political career, you do not need to set yourself against a significant part of the people, it's wrong. If you want to defend your point of view, do it, it's laudable, but such attacks as 'gang of extortionists' are unacceptable. We already had an incident with Camillus, but apparently this has taught no one anything

You're right. Absolutely correct. You are the only extortionist thus far and it was very unfair of me to assume that you spoke for the entire Legio when you shamelessly threatened the Republic. So I apologise for that to all the honourable members of the Legio; it was a mistake on my part. That having been said, let us briefly assume that you are indeed speaking for the entire Legio; and that it is the position of the Legio that if the Lex Flavia is not passed then you all will withdraw en masse from the life of the Republic. If that were the case I would have only one reply:

Good riddance.

I do not care how large the Legio, the Factio, or any other organisation within the Republic is. If a group within the Republic thinks it can force the passage of legislation through threats and coercion then I would rather see every man jack of them expelled from the Republic. There should be absolutely no toleration for the kind of extortionate threat that you leveled against the Comitia and that is certainly something I will stake a political career upon. So I assume that you are only speaking for yourself and that Flavius Severus will soon disavow your despicable(!) tactics and if that is the case I will continue to regard every member of the Legio XI Claudia Pia Fidelis as a friend, ally, and fellow Roman. But if it is in fact the will of the Legio to try to leverage its numbers and participation to disrupt the democratic processes of the state then I will be the first to call for its forcible disbandment.

[Quintus Iulius Symphorianus]

based on your threats perhaps 'gang of extortionists' would not be entirely unfair

But this somehow really sounded rude. This is already too much. I'm not talking about the law of the Flavians, your disputes, these are your disputes, but when you talk like that ... I think you crossed the line, and rudely responded to at least about three dozen people, are not you ashamed? I see you for the first time, and you already carried me in absentia to the "gang of extortionists." With a single phrase you spat on the honor and pride of thirty people ... well, did you not think about the consequences?

You are correct. As I said above it was unfair of me to tar the entire Legio with the term, and as I said above I do apologise. A Flavia Philippa's threats had quite carried me away in anger and I did not take the time that I should have to distinguish my criticism of her words as opposed to seeming to criticise the whole Legio.

[Aulus Iunius Varro]

I came here to announce my intention to run for the quaestor of the Roman Republic. I am a citizen of the Roman Republic from the first days of its existence, I am a taxpayer, I meet the requirements for this post. I do not know English well, I wrote this speech with the help of my friends and Google translator, but I have other useful qualities that will help the Roman Republic.
Best wishes, Varro.

[Aula Flavia Philippa]

You are the only extortionist thus far and it was very unfair of me to assume that you spoke for the entire Legio when you shamelessly threatened the Republic.

I have no words. My friend Censor Severus likes to talk about Roman virtues, but looking at your words and behavior, I'm convinced that, apparently, someone is alien to the notion of Roman virtues. I tried to explain to you that some of your words are incorrect, because you do not understand how the mechanisms of the Republic work, in return I get insults: "extortionist" "shamelessly"! Nobody has insulted you here, if somebody made comments to you, they were in the correct form, but what you allow yourself, is no longer fit in any framework. Everything has a limit.

In the meantime I feed the need to point out that the Collegium Pontificum and Collegium Augurum are -- unlike the Legio -- intrinsic to the Republic itself.

No, wait, you wrote this:

Because I do not and will not support taking a collegium and granting it exclusive powers as an organ of the state. Not because I have anything against the legion but rather because I am uncomfortable with arbitrarily promoting and empowering a collegium.

These are your words. Now, you are trying to elude the answer. The answer is simple, you have written incorrectly, because you do not know how the mechanisms of the Republic work. You deliberately ignored my example, about already existing colleges with state functions. You do not do it right. Even if you take into account your subsequent words, it still does not cancel the fact that you do not understand the issue, because even if these colleges are mentioned in the Declaration, then there are other colleges that are not listed there that perform state functions, for example, the treasury, or other colleges with state powers - provincial colleges. Why do not you oppose them?
Every time, denying your incompetence in this matter, you are plunging deeper into the abyss, instead of arguments you start using far-fetched arguments, insults, you do not understand that you are setting up people against yourself?

There should be absolutely no toleration for the kind of extortionate threat that you leveled against the Comitia and that is certainly something I will stake a political career upon.

This is an obvious search. Firstly, I do not see any threats. If you are talking about Alba's words, then leave or remain is her choice, as is the choice of those people who wish to follow her example. Do you want to deprive them of the right to choose? Or what is the threat then? You generally realize that all these people, this is an integral part of the Comitia. In your opinion, these people are threatening themselves.

If a group within the Republic thinks it can force the passage of legislation through threats and coercion then I would rather see every man jack of them expelled from the Republic. There should be absolutely no toleration for the kind of extortionate threat that you leveled against the Comitia and that is certainly something I will stake a political career upon.

It does not work that way. I am once again convinced that you do not understand how the system of the Republic is organized. If the collegia does not violate the law, it can not be disbanded. Moreover, it is not in your power to expel someone, because exile belongs to the competence of the people's congregation, that is, you can not drive out a whole group of people just because they were in some collegia, and you can not expel someone, then without the general consent of the people, the very people, of which this people is significant part.
You take a lot on yourself, you can not build a political career on this, you are not given to determine who is right and who is not, who behaves correctly and who is not. The Republic has a system of checks and balances, it, this system works, but your words say that without knowing how everything is arranged here, you are trying to replace the institutions of the Republic. Do you understand that your words may seem another political demagogy, or a deliberate delusion for the citizens?

I will be the first to call for its forcible disbandment.

Usually people learn from their mistakes. But not in this case. To rush here with such phrases, it's like showing the bull a red rag. Are you doing this on purpose? Do you understand that this does not work that way? However, I'm already tired, something you prove. Do as you please, but I'm afraid you'll grow old trying to do this, as the system of checks and balances in the Republic is working.

if it is in fact the will of the Legio to try to leverage its numbers and participation to disrupt the democratic processes

Studying that you are publicly insulting citizens, showing disrespect to whole communities of citizens, while proclaiming that you will expel citizens and dissolve civil associations for those actions that are not designated as crimes, I think that this yours the phrase sounds very ironic.

Your outrageous behavior casts a shadow on the image of the Roman citizen and Roman virtues. Therefore, I do not have the slightest desire to talk with you any more, because I, unlike you, oppose the escalation of the conflict, and you, time after time, use unacceptable methods of dispute, justifying others.

[Gaius Flavius Aetius]

I do fully support every single word of Aula Flavia, especially about Roman virtues. It is a shame, that so many Quirites just don't know how to watch for what are they saying. All those unstopable insults are absolutely inappropriate. You better think what you can do with this. Hire a rhetor maybe?

[Quintus Vergilius Crassus]

Quintus Iulius Symphorianus, you are generally normal, what are you doing? What are you allowing yourself? You do not like the lex, no problem, vote against it. But I did not understand who gave you the right to insult people? Yes, you apologized, but you in the same report again insulted other citizens - Phillipa. What did she deserve? She is a polite and courteous person. She insulted you? No. She by the way, a member of the Sarmatia Council. Do you know that this is the largest province in the Republic? How do you think this should be perceived as 50! man from the province of Sarmatia, then how do you unreasonably insult their representative? Are you all right? Someone insulted you here? No. So what are you doing? Do you have to answer for your actions, or do you think that the Internet gives you the right to say all kinds of disgusting things, attack entire groups of citizens, and not be responsible for your actions? And you want to become a magistrate? After all your actions, I'm not at all sure that you are worthy of this post in your qualities.
If someone will vote for you, then probably because he did not see your messages or did not understand what is written there.
Actions like yours have consequences, and they will follow, and this is not a threat, it is a statement of fact, like the law in physics.

[Quintus Iulius Symphorianus]

Alright so it is now clearly incumbent upon me to say something after being irresponsible, uncivil, unworthy of public office et al. Two key points must be made clear:

-- I did not and do not mean to insult anyone. Having been perceived as insulting the Legio XI I promptly apologised and I furthermore apologise if any Sarmatians feel offended.

-- I have no regrets whatsoever about calling Tiberia Salvia Alba an extortionist. Harsh? Absolutely. It should be.

If someone breaks into my home and when I go downstairs they are halfway out the front door carrying my television, they are a thief. To call them that is not an insult, it's a statement of fact. Likewise, calling T. Salvia Alba an extortionist is not a random insult I pulled from my tunica because I don't like her. I call her that because the threats she levied against this Comitia constitute extortion. That is and remains the driving point of everything I have posted after that point.

Whether or not it is popular isn't my concern. If every Sarmatian in the Republic loathes me and marks me as an enemy for calling out one of their one I'll still continue merrily on my way. This isn't because I hate anyone or because I'm trying to implement some esoteric personal goal; it's because at the end of the day I care much less about getting elected than I do about calling out someone trying to disrupt the legislative system.

To recap:

T. Salvia Alba's threat that the Legio XI will refuse and ignore any matter in the Republic unless the lex Flavia is passed is criminal, coercive, and extortionate. Pointing out that extorting the Republic does, in fact, make her an extortionist isn't an insult: it is a statement of fact. Should she or anyone feel otherwise I encourage them to exercise their legal rights and file a criminal complaint against me for character assassination.

If, in pointing that out, I torpedo my political career because Sarmatians like T. Salvia Alba and think I'm being too harsh against her, that is a consequence I am willing to suffer. So to answer the multiple people who have asked if I'm aware of the repercussions of my words: yes I am, and I'm fine with them.

I'm also pleased to note that in the time since I apparently upset 1/3rd of the Republic there has since been a deluge of Salvia Alba-friendly candidates for the Quaestorate. I'm glad that in destroying my own campaign I can inspire others to be involved in civic life <3

Valete,

Q. Iulius Symphorianus

[Lucius Aurelius Curio]

Curio Sal.

I would like to thank everyone who came out to announce their candidacy. I am very pleased with the turn out we have had for Quaestores and Curule Aediles. As many may have noticed, it has been a very contentious meeting, filled with heated tongues and harsh words from both sides. I would like to take this time to say a few words before moving this Assembly on to voting.

Lex Flavia has come out of the gate as a split lex, with some in favor and some not in favor. This is bound to happen from time to time. However, we should always keep our heads when debating such items. Many have expressed a view that the lex places too much into Provincia Sarmatia's Legio XI. Perhaps this is true. However, I myself voted in favor of this lex once already, based upon it's merit, not only now, but also in the future. For now, we have one established Legion amongst our ranks. This is Legio XI. We have a pre-made, pre-trained Legion ready. From a practicality standpoint, I believe it should be taken advantage of. Perhaps this lex places too much with them for now, but it can be modified later on to change that. Say, down the road, another province forms a Legion. We can modify Lex Flavia to incorporate this new Legion as well, adding it to the names of those who are official Roman Republic Legions.

I ask that everyone reads the Leges up for ratification, and thinks on the candidates up for election. Cast your votes with objectivity, decide if the leges are best for the RR or if the candidates are the best fits for the job at hand. Heed the council provided by this debate, but do not let it decide your vote alone. Instead, take it into consideration while you ponder on what you, the citizens of our esteemed Republic, believe is best for our future. This is now in the hands of the Comitia Tributa. I trust you will all make the best decision for the future of the Roman Republic.

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Я хотел бы поблагодарить всех, кто вышел, чтобы объявить о своей кандидатуре. Я очень доволен тем, что у нас были Quaestores и Curule Aediles. Как многие, возможно, заметили, это была очень спорная встреча, наполненная горячими языками и резкими словами с обеих сторон. Я хотел бы на этот раз сказать несколько слов, прежде чем переводить эту Ассамблею на голосование.

Лекс Флавия вышла из ворот в виде расколотого лекса, с некоторыми в пользу, а некоторые не в пользу. Время от времени это должно произойти. Однако при обсуждении таких вопросов мы всегда должны держать голову. Многие из них выразили мнение, что лекс слишком много вписывается в Legion XI Provincia Sarmatia. Возможно, это правда. Тем не менее, я сам проголосовал за этот лекс уже уже, основываясь на его достоинствах, не только сейчас, но и в будущем. Пока у нас есть один легион из наших рядов. Это Legio XI. У нас есть готовый, подготовленный Легион. С практической точки зрения, я считаю, что он должен быть использован. Возможно, этот лекс слишком много стоит с ними на данный момент, но впоследствии он может быть изменен, чтобы изменить это. Скажем, по дороге другая провинция образует Легион. Мы можем модифицировать Lex Flavia, чтобы включить этот новый Легион, добавив его к именам тех, кто являются официальными легионами Римской Республики.

Я прошу, чтобы все читали Leges для ратификации и думали о кандидатах на выборах. Измените свои голоса с объективностью, решите, лучше ли подходят для RR для RR, или если кандидаты лучше всего подходят для этой работы. Прислушайтесь к совету, предоставленному этими дебатами, но не позволяйте ему решать свой голос в одиночку. Вместо этого учтите это, размышляя над тем, что вы, граждане нашей уважаемой Республики, считаете, что лучше всего для нашего будущего. Теперь это находится в руках «Комиции Трибута». Надеюсь, вы все примите самое лучшее решение для будущего Римской Республики.

Valete Bene!

L. Aurelius Curio
Consul Minor

[Lucius Aurelius Curio]

Curio Sal.

The ballots have been sent out. If there is anyone who doesn't receive them, please let me know and I'll get the link to you.

BALLOT LINK IN CASE OF ERROR:

http://romanrepublic.org/civitas/welcom ... b7934eea80

The Rogator for this election shall be Quaestor Seneca, with myself verifying the results of the election.

There is to be no more debate or candidacy from this point forward.

Valete Bene!

L. Aurelius Curio
Consul Minor

[Publius Iunius Brutus]

Ballots are out. If you have not received one in the mail, go here to vote:

http://romanrepublic.org/civitas/welcom ... b7934eea80

FYI: The voting periods ends Dec 4th.