PUBLIC DISCUSSION: Senate meeting (Session VII)

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Re: PUBLIC DISCUSSION: Senate meeting (Session VII)

Postby Gaius Curtius Philo » Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:15 pm

Sextus Decius Mus wrote:
Gaius Valerius Scipio wrote:From the looks of it there is still a lot of animosity between the RR and NR, which is completely understandable considering what has happened and the fact that we have bad blood between our organisations. What I considered this declaration to be about was a more cordial relation between our groups, in no way begging for friendship but an agreement between our groups to put an end to the negativity and animosity between us and as I said before move towards an era where infighting in minimalised and at best stopped completely (Audens blatant disrespect to our members being an example of such).



All solid points Gaius Valerius Scipio, but I failed to see why such a declaration was needed.

Where relations between NR-non-corporate, RPR and RR not already cordial? Except for a few lone wolves (Such as Audens) it certainly seemed this way in my eyes.

Lex Cispia-Iunia is important because it results in a real tangible action.

It seems to have become vogue for Roman Groups to shout, "unity and cooperation", and then do nothing to back it up. I think these popular calls for unity actually started once the Roman Republic Declaration, calling for such unity after bad behavior from NR, became popular on Facebook. Lots of groups jumped on the bandwagon it seems.

Thing is, only one group has really done anything.

The RR started the calls for unity and cooperation.
The RR magistrates such as Consul Curio actually went out to try to cement cooperation.
The RR now follows up with action by recognizing past service in other groups as equivalent to service in this organization.

The shouts for peace and unity are nice. But actually doing something to make this happen is 100x nicer. Hopefully, other groups continue to follow our example in this regards. Action or it didn't happen.


Well said
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Re: PUBLIC DISCUSSION: Senate meeting (Session VII)

Postby Tiberia Salvia Alba » Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:12 pm

Интересный разговор, так что я тоже выражу своё мнение. Я состояла в Нова Роме. Теперь я состою в Римской Республике. Почему я перешла из одной организации в другую? Это комплекс причин, но среди этих причин нет такой причины, как «Нова Рома плохая и злая организация». Организация это прежде всего люди, которые ее составляют. Поэтому ругая организацию, вы фактически ругаете всех, кто в этой организации. Виновата ли Нова Рома в том, что развалила огромную римскую организацию? Нет, Нова Рома не виновата, как вся савокопность людей, которые ее составляют. Наши, и мои в том числе, претензии, если вдуматься, относятся к конкретным людям, а не организации в целом.
Мои друзья и знакомые были нагло и вероломны вышвырнуты из Нова Ромы, нашей Сарматии навязали губернатора, который месяцами ни с кем из не связывался, даже не интересуясь делами провинции, нашего настоящего губернатора выкинули, даже не удосужившись спросить нашего же мнения, просто поставили перед фактом. А за несколько лет до этого, из-за предательских действий в правительстве они развалили самую огромную провинцию, разорвав ее напополам. Виню ли я в этом Нову Рому? Нет, не виню. Но я виню в этом конкретных людей.
Винить в чем-то организацию, это значит винить в чем-то всех ее участников. Это все равно, что винить Камбоджу и камбоджийцев за то, что ими правили Красные Кхмеры. Но вот, режим Красных Кхмеров пал, был свергнут, они ушли, но Камбоджа и камбоджийцы остались. Точно также и Нова Рома.
Мне нравится инициатива нашего доброго Консула Курио, это добрый жест хорошего и доброго человека, которые ставит себя выше личных страстей, который смотрит с надеждой в будущее, вместо того, чтобы оглядываться с презрение в прошлое.
Но если Вам не нравятся эти доводы, то давайте взглянем на эту ситуацию по-другому, с прагматизмом настоящих Римлян. Какие негативные последствия несёт нам этот договор? Никаких. Этот договор нас не к чему не обязывает, наоборот, заключив его, мы выполним то, что велит нам декларация, которую я имела честь подписать. Однако, некоторые, вместо того, что бы строить мосты друг с другом, предпочитают строить глухие стены, или желают, что бы пропасть нас и дальше разделяли, уподобляясь таким образом неразумным детям, которые из-за детской обиды, не могут принять здравое решение.
Я, мои друзья, моя провинция значительно пострадали от правительства Нова Рома, но несмотря ни на что, я готова строить светлое будущее, я не держу обид, как меняются люди, так меняются и организации. Нова Рома изменилась, потому что изменились люди, которые ее представляют. Если этот договор не несёт ничего плохого, потоможет нам объединить тех добрых людей, что есть в Нова Роме, и выполнить нам то, что мы сами провозгласили при создании Римской Республики, то мы должны заключить этот договор. Давайте стремится в будущее, к общему процветанию и благоденствию, на обидах и вражде не построишь будущее, это плохой фундамент для любых начинаний.

----

Interesting conversation, so I also express my opinion. I was in Nova Roma. Now I am in the Roman Republic. Why did I move from one organization to another? This is a complex of reasons, but among these reasons there is no such reason as "Nova Roma is a bad and evil organization". The organization is primarily people who make it up. Therefore, cursing the organization, you actually abuse everyone who is in this organization. Is Nova Roma to blame for having destroyed a huge Roman organization? No, Nova Roma is not to blame, like all the savagery of the people who make it up. Our, and my including, claims, if you think about it, refer to specific people, and not to the organization as a whole.
My friends and acquaintances were brazenly and treacherously thrown out of Nova Roma, our Sarmatia imposed a governor who for months had not contacted anyone from anyone, without even being interested in the affairs of the province, our present governor was thrown out, without even bothering to ask our own opinion, just put before the fact . And a few years before, because of treacherous actions in the government, they had disorganized the largest province, breaking it in half. Do I blame Nova Roma? No, I do not. But I blame this on specific people.
To blame for something organization, it means blaming in some way all its participants. It's like blaming Cambodia and Cambodians for being ruled by the Khmer Rouge. But, the regime of the Khmer Rouge fell, was overthrown, they left, but Cambodia and Cambodians remained. Similarly, Nova Roma.
I like the initiative of our good Consul Curio, it is a kind gesture of a good and kind person who puts himself above personal passions, who looks with hope in the future, instead of looking back in contempt.
But if you do not like these arguments, then let's look at this situation differently, with the pragmatism of real Romans. What are the negative consequences of this agreement? None. This contract does not obligate us to anything, on the contrary, by concluding it, we will do what the declaration says that I had the honor to sign. However, some people, instead of building bridges with each other, prefer to build deaf walls, or they wish that we would be separated further, thus becoming like unreasonable children who, because of their childish offense, can not make a sensible decision.
I, my friends, my province suffered considerably from the government of Nova Roma, but in spite of everything, I am ready to build a bright future, I do not hold resentment, as people change, so do organizations. Nova Roma has changed, because the people who represent her have changed. If this treaty does not bring anything bad, it will enable us to unite those good people that are in Nova Roma, and to fulfill to us what we ourselves proclaimed in the creation of the Roman Republic, then we must conclude this treaty. Let's strive for the future, for general prosperity and prosperity, for resentment and hostility, you will not build the future, this is a bad foundation for any endeavors.
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Re: PUBLIC DISCUSSION: Senate meeting (Session VII)

Postby Paullus Aemilius Gallus » Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:23 pm

I’m citizen of the Roman Republic for almost 11 months but I don’t know much about what happened in Roma Nova. To be honest, I don’t care. This is the past. Not even my past. We are going to have more and more new citizens. They will join us to build the future of the Roman Republic, not to dwell on the past.
I think it’s time to turn the page. With the Declaration of Amicitia, we show only greatness and magnanimity.
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Re: PUBLIC DISCUSSION: Senate meeting (Session VII)

Postby Gaius Florius Lupus » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:09 am

Salvete Quirites!

I am very sad to see these negative attitudes towards NR. I am citizen of both communities, Nova Roma and this Republic, and I am sure that I am not the only one, because Romanitas is what both organizations are about. There is no need for conflict.

Nova Roma has overcome its past crisis that was started by the dictatura of Caesar. Neither Caesar nor Sulla play any role in Nova Roma any more. The US corporation named "Nova Roma, Inc." was a legal tool to secure the assets of this community (which it failed to do), but it was never identical with the community of Nova Roma.
NR is currently preparing elections and therefore the NR senate appointed several Interreges. For some obvious lack of wisdom they also appointed Marcus Audens, a man who unfortunately developed severe mental problems in recent years. That he was mentally not fit anymore for the office should have been known, since we could witness it ourselves during the time that he was a citizen of our Republic. Apparently it was hoped that it would be a mere representative function, where he could do no harm and meant as a recognition for his unquestionable merits in the past. He is still a valuable source of knowledge for Roman military history, if one can handle the difficulties of his personality.

In any case it is very unfair to judge him and the organization that he was supposed to represent based on statements of a meanwhile severely ill man.
The current Interrex of Nova Roma has apologized for him. Our both organizations have the same goal. This statement about "competing organizations" in the laws of NR is obsolete and from the time of Sulla and Caesar. There has only not been an opportunity so far to remove it, because NR had no operational government or senate to do this. This is going to change now. The "competing organization" clause will disappear. It actually was what triggered the dictatorship after the tribuni plebis vetoed an attempt of Caesar to enforce this clause.

The proposals of Consul Curio should not have been withdrawn from the Senate meeting. The declaration of Amicitia and the mutual recognition of the cursus honoris were a move into the right direction. Please reconsider the decision to withdraw the proposals.
How do we look now in the eyes of other Roman organization, if we reject an offer of Amicitia? This would give us a very bad reputation, which will have further repercussions when recruiting new citizens. We would be accused of being hostile to other communities.
This would be exactly what people interested in Roman culture do not want to see: petty political infighting between different groups.

I strongly support both proposals and I would like to ask all other citizens who also do so to make their voices heard. I am sure the majority of our citizens do not want a conflict with Nova Roma, but prefer more cooperation. Not those who shout louder should have their will, but those who are more. Let us at least have some kind of democratic vote over the proposals, first in the Senate and then in the comitia, and not just discard them right away because of a few loud voices objecting.

Concordia itinerem nostrum custodiat!

Valete!

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Re: PUBLIC DISCUSSION: Senate meeting (Session VII)

Postby Lucia Horatia Adamas » Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:09 am



L. Horatia Adamas Proculae Valeriae Messallae omnibusque S.P.D.

Generally it is wise to check one's facts before one opens one's mouth, and to control one's emotions at all times. The SC you cite as characterizing the RPR and RR as hostile entities is the work of the corporate NR Senate, and one of the main reasons why a lawsuit was instituted against the two men who assumed dictatorial powers for no legitimate reason, L. Cornelius Sulla and Cn. Julius Caesar (hopefully not the same individual as has taken this name in this group). The true, active Nova Roma, the non-corporate one, has absolutely NOTHING to do with this senate decree, and wants no part of a single word in it. That part of NR wishes to join in friendship, 'born not to join in hating, but in loving,' as a certain ancient Greek author put it. I have good sources in the non-corporate NR; please do not tar the non-corporate NR with the brush the dictatorial duo and their friends in the corporate NR richly deserve.

Secondly, Lupe, the corporate NR Senate is technically in session, extended until U.S. Election Day, but did not appoint any interreges (or have anything on the sort on its agenda), or perform any of the other acts recently ascribed to it. Instead it is the NON-CORPORATE SENATE which appointed interreges, and which wishes to join with other similar organizations in friendship. These are different groups with different, and separate, memberships. Several members of the non-corporate NR (but not all) are plaintiffs in the lawsuit against the totally illegal dictatorship, and its actions (including the lifelong expulsion of three tribunes for exercising intercessio and of four ordinary citizens for nothing at all, plus the expulsion of all magistrates of the opposite political faction and censorship of Stalinesque proportions; even the Senate list was shut down for a while, then heavily moderated). No one need fear being caught up in this forensic exercise merely by proclaiming friendship. If, however, any RR member wishes to join corporate NR, that might present problems above and beyond the fact that there are no consuls, no censors, no praetors, etc., because elections were cancelled days before they were to have occurred and the terms of all magistrates, even the senior censor (2 year term), expired by New Year's Day of 2016.

Please try to refrain from confusing the barely-alive corporate NR, the toy of Sulla and Caesar, who hold its censorial database, its website, its treasury (being used for legal fees on the pretext that NR is a defendant, whereas they are, not NR), etc., but which does little but file an annual report so that the U.S. government will keep it on life support, with the active part of Nova Roma, the non-corporate part, which is trying to revive a fine organization free from the poison spewed by the dictatorial duo.

Obiter, M. Audens is not an interrex at present, and does have a temper. His sugar may have been off kilter, too. The office of interrex lasts a whole five days (though extended to 15), and historically at least, the duties are centered on arranging elections, not 'foreign relations,' so to speak.

Other than the confusion noted above, Lupe, you are correct. That rogatio should be resubmitted, and confusion about the identities of the two Nova Romas resolved. Almost all activity in NR in recent months is on the non-corporate side; the corporate Senate hadn't met in many months until its recent session, now more or less in suspense. Those relying on websites from the time before the separation should take what they find with the contents of an entire salt mine, not just a mere grain of NaCl. On November 16, 2015, the onset of the dictatorship, Nova Roma suffered grave damage; some months later, a lawsuit was launched and eventually a non-corporate NR was formed. It is that group, NOT the corporate portion, which seeks friendship with other similar groups.

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Re: PUBLIC DISCUSSION: Senate meeting (Session VII)

Postby Gaius Florius Lupus » Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:09 pm

Salve Horatia!
I have not said anything else. You just said it in different words.
Corporate NR is no Roman organization, they are a corporation and do not speak for NR. Interrex Lentulus speaks for NR.
Vale!
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Re: PUBLIC DISCUSSION: Senate meeting (Session VII)

Postby Lucius Aurelius Curio » Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:27 pm

I must apologize to you, the people, for my hasty withdrawal of this item. I should've waited for more input from others in our Republic before doing so. I see now that we have an even greater majority of people who want this unity than those who don't.

I understand those who were hurt by the individuals in Nova Roma, specifically Sulla and Caesar. However, they do not make Nova Roman ranks up on their own. We must also keep in mind the people who truly make up those numbers. People who also have suffered under the iron fist of those dictators. I wasn't in Nova Roma at that time, I only got to see the final moments of the dictatorship before I joined here. But I have been studying quite profusely on the subject over the past few days, and spoke to several members of our own Republic who urged me to reconsider my position on the withdrawal of this item.

Many have asked this question of me recently, "What has Nova Roman done to earn our trust?" Well, I have an answer. Back in 2015, before the dictatorship (many of you may know this better than I), there was a group of people who stood up to these tyrants on their 'no competing organization' clause. On this list were two groups, Res Publica Romana (RPR) and us, before we were even fully formed. At this point we were nothing more than a fledgling, one the soon to be dictators wished to destroy. These people pushed back on this clause, defending the right to have other groups and be part of these groups. This sparked what would become the dictatorship. Intercessio after intercessio were denied by Caesar, on the grounds they weren't carried out correctly, or so he said. One thing evolved into another, and we find ourselves in this current situation. So from where I'm standing, an individual who wasn't involved in this dispute, they're victims too. But they lost their corporation for trying to do what was right by us and RPR. Now, I'm not saying we should rush to their aid and throw ourselves at their feet by any means. What I am saying is that we should at least give true cooperation a try.

When our groups are divided, it hurts us as well as them. Censor Severus has suggested in the past to reach out to museums and archaeology societies, that we may work together on things. Now, how can we expect them to take us seriously when all they have to do is check social media and see all the mud flinging going on there? Would they want to attach their names to someone like that? I do not believe so, as it's highly unprofessional to say the least. Now, no such thing has happened since Consul Philo and myself began to work with them. It's been very peaceful as of late, and for that I am very glad.

"What can they offer us?", you may ask. RPR has influence in a part of the world where we have next to nobody active there. Perhaps by working with them we can change that, expand our provinces that way. Nova Romans are all over the globe, and many have more experience at hosting real life events than most of us do here. I've talked with several of our most senior members, and the precise work that goes into an actual event is beyond their very wide range of knowledge (except for the Sarmatians). This is stuff that we can levy to help our communities grow. And most of all, this agreement can act as a way to bolster our own ranks. I believe more Nova Romans and RPR members will be willing to join us if they know hostilities between groups will be gone. Peace is good for everyone in the end, not just a few.

I beg you to consider this as we move this meeting along, dear citizens and Senatores. All I ask is that we give this a fighting chance. If it doesn't work out in the end, so be it. But we should at least try to do something. We have nothing to lose, as Nova Roma doesn't want us in the middle of their legal battles. This was made very clear to me by them. They don't want our money or assistance in that matter.

Valete Bene!

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Re: PUBLIC DISCUSSION: Senate meeting (Session VII)

Postby Publius Iunius Brutus » Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:47 pm

Brutus Cen sal.

I think this debate really isn't one about do we "make peace" or not.

Since when was the RR not friendly with the people behind the non-corporate faction of NR? I say we always had friendly relations. Heck, I consider most of the non-corp people friends and colleagues. No Declaration is required for this. It has been the status quo.

I will give an example. Before the RR was founded I was actively working with the individuals behind non-corporate NR. I even provided them financial support at one time. Other citizens of RR did the same. RR has always pledged its support. I did this when I was Consul. So did Curio as a current Consul.

The RR leadership privately supports the people behind non-corp NR. This goes without saying by actions done behind the scenes.

I view this debate as one where we need to decide on what types of groups we officially align with. Non-corp NR is not really an organization as of today. It's a group of NR members who oppose (rightly) the status of their corporation. But it controls few if any recordable assets and its future status is unclear. It is also clearly linked to NR by name and association. Bottomline, its early days yet for the non-corp group. They could become a true organization. They could remain a protest group within an already establish corporation.

From early days I suggested that the people behind non-corp do ONE of the following. (I) obtain control of NR through the courts, (II) incorporate in a safe location, (III) join an already established organization which shares their goals.

Until such a thing occurs the group in question is a loosely affiliated group associated with all the problems of their parent organization. I support them. But is it really the business of the RR organization to be officially casting lots with internal factions of other organizations? I don't think this serves the interests of our organization or membership. I would actually argue the flexibility afforded by keeping our association informal is probably of greater use to non-corp.

My two denarii.
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Re: PUBLIC DISCUSSION: Senate meeting (Session VII)

Postby Gaius Curtius Philo » Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:27 am

Publius Iunius Brutus wrote:Brutus Cen sal.

I think this debate really isn't one about do we "make peace" or not.

Since when was the RR not friendly with the people behind the non-corporate faction of NR? I say we always had friendly relations. Heck, I consider most of the non-corp people friends and colleagues. No Declaration is required for this. It has been the status quo.

I will give an example. Before the RR was founded I was actively working with the individuals behind non-corporate NR. I even provided them financial support at one time. Other citizens of RR did the same. RR has always pledged its support. I did this when I was Consul. So did Curio as a current Consul.

The RR leadership privately supports the people behind non-corp NR. This goes without saying by actions done behind the scenes.

I view this debate as one where we need to decide on what types of groups we officially align with. Non-corp NR is not really an organization as of today. It's a group of NR members who oppose (rightly) the status of their corporation. But it controls few if any recordable assets and its future status is unclear. It is also clearly linked to NR by name and association. Bottomline, its early days yet for the non-corp group. They could become a true organization. They could remain a protest group within an already establish corporation.

From early days I suggested that the people behind non-corp do ONE of the following. (I) obtain control of NR through the courts, (II) incorporate in a safe location, (III) join an already established organization which shares their goals.

Until such a thing occurs the group in question is a loosely affiliated group associated with all the problems of their parent organization. I support them. But is it really the business of the RR organization to be officially casting lots with internal factions of other organizations? I don't think this serves the interests of our organization or membership. I would actually argue the flexibility afforded by keeping our association informal is probably of greater use to non-corp.

My two denarii.


Makes sense and well spoken.
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Re: PUBLIC DISCUSSION: Senate meeting (Session VII)

Postby Gaius Florius Lupus » Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:01 am

Gratias tibi ago, Curio Consul!
It is good to have your proposal back on the table for discussion.
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