PUBLIC DISCUSSION: Senate meeting (Session V)

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PUBLIC DISCUSSION: Senate meeting (Session V)

Postby Publius Sextius Laevus » Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:48 pm

Salvete Cives!

The Senate's 5th Session is from April 28 to May 17.

The debate phase will proceed from the April 28th until May 6th.
Voting is scheduled to begin May 6th and close on May 17th.

In accordance with our Mos Maiorum, I hereby open this public space for the citizenry to debate, if they so wish, this fifth session of the Senate.

The agenda items have been publish in the announcement here: http://www.romanrepublic.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1867#p8796.

Your participation is valuable and I urge all citizens follow the Senatorial Proceedings at the link below and to speak their minds in this thread on any item they wish!

The Senate: Curia http://www.romanrepublic.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=4 proceedings may be viewed by all logged in Citizens.

Valete
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Re: PUBLIC DISCUSSION: Senate meeting (Session V)

Postby Publius Sallustius Quadratus » Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:10 pm

Salvete omnes.

Thanks to our Tribune for opening this public forum to review and discuss the upcoming Senate session.

I am looking forward to hearing from other citizens. Let's have a vibrant, spirited and civil public discussion!

May the Gods bless our work.
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Re: PUBLIC DISCUSSION: Senate meeting (Session V)

Postby Publius Sallustius Quadratus » Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:15 pm

I would like to address the following item first:

VII) Evaluation of Numerius Antonius Paullus and Numerius Iuluis Dolabella as Procuratores of the Roman Republic (PRIVATE ITEM)

My first question is, why is this a "private item?" If it is a public matter (and I see no reason to regard it as anything else) then it should be a public item and open to the public for observation and discussion.
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Re: PUBLIC DISCUSSION: Senate meeting (Session V)

Postby Lucius Aurelius Curio » Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:26 pm

Curio Sal.

Evaluations of all procuratores, sacerdotes and augures have always been discussed in private due to sensitive and private information contained in the process. Information such individuals may not want public. If there is any decision to remove an individual from office, it is outlined very clearly before the public. This is not to hide anything, and the Tribunes have direct access to the meetings and can see these discussions as well.

However, this item is being changed to only include Numerius Iulius Dolabella, as Paullus has resigned from all positions and the Republic.

Vale Bene!

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Re: PUBLIC DISCUSSION: Senate meeting (Session V)

Postby Publius Sextius Laevus » Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:00 pm

CIVES REI PVBLICAE ROMANAE APPROPINQVATE ET AVSCVLTATE

Favorable Auspices have been taken and the Opening Ceremony performed http://www.romanrepublic.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1867#p9113.

The Senate Session V is now officially open.

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Re: PUBLIC DISCUSSION: Senate meeting (Session V)

Postby Publius Sextius Laevus » Thu May 04, 2017 1:01 pm

Salvete Cives!

A separate tread for Public Discussion of Senate Session V, Item I, was previously established in the Main Forum for the Minting coins for our Republic http://www.romanrepublic.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1292.

All other Public Discussion of Senate Session V Items should be posted in this thread.

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Re: PUBLIC DISCUSSION: Senate meeting (Session V)

Postby Gaius Florius Lupus » Sat May 06, 2017 12:03 am

C. Florius Lupus Consuli Aurelio Curioni et omnibus civibus salutes plurimas dicit. Avete!

I would like to ask Consul Aurelius Curio to extend the debate phase of the current Senate meeting and to add an additional topic to the agenda.

Recent events require the attention of the Senate. Several highly respected citizens have abandoned our Republic during the last few weeks. We cannot continue to lose valuable citizens like this. Their concerns need to be taken serious in order to ensure the survival of our community.
  • Cassia Longina
  • Maecenas
  • Paullus
  • Niger
All of them have expressed their disagreement with the way our Republic is organized (the magistrates, the leges, our politics in general) and later joined or simply remained in other communities, which are organized in a significantly less formal and bureaucratic way.
As I have pointed out already shortly after our foundation, our political structure is not helpful for our common goal to promote Romanitas and cooperation with other likeminded groups.

The Senate should therefore call for a referendum in the Comitia Tributa, whether to abolish our current political organization and to replace it with a less bureaucratic and formal one or not. The populus Romanus should now be given the chance to decide what they really want. So we can either make necessary changes or we will have confirmed by the majority that the current structure is really what they want.

Optime valete!
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Re: PUBLIC DISCUSSION: Senate meeting (Session V)

Postby Gaius Curtius Philo » Sat May 06, 2017 1:45 am

Salve Lupe amice!

I dont think your argument holds much strength my friend and I will explain why.

1) Regarding the citizens that left - Let'd examine the reasons each of these citizens left and see if they reenforce or not your argument
I) Cassia - She did not leave because she thought we had too much titles and rules. On the contrary, Cassia was one of the most title hungry people in our Republic. She ragequitted because she had a personal disagreement with Maecenas and because Maecenas kept trolling her. You might argue she went to a place with less rules, but let us be frank, she went to a place where she calls the shots and does whatever she wants. She has censored posts from people, did secret votes and expelled council members she disagreed with on the fly.

II) Maecenas - He left because he felt it was shameful the whole commotion that happened because of his discussion with Cassia and felt that it was his fault. He felt the best thing to do was leave.

III) Paullus - Paullus left because he did not appreciate being taken out of the Sacerdos private forum temporarily, even though it was explained to him that it was done because Cassia was reportedly stealing our rites and framing them as her own. We wanted to talk with him face to face and straighten things out. He denied.

IV) Niger - Niger left because he was called a hypocrite after being repeatedly called out on his misrepresenting of our group (something that was proven by people in the RR numerous times) and giving a false impression that the CPR didnt have the same magistracies as the RR (which it has). He felt offended and left...

You have criticized our system many times before amice. Have you once felt personally attacked? Have you once felt like everyone around you was mocking you? If not (and I imagine not because I always see everyone answering you with much politeness and reason like you yourself show) you can see that it has nothing to do with his opinion. People got angry at the apparent malice behind his opinion. A clear unwillingness to understand what is explained and a clear condescending manner towards his peers. He was disliked because he was arrogant and two-faced and people called him out for it.

I wish it was our fault. You know why? Because that would make it extremely easy to fix. We would just have to change. But it is not so. The fact of the matter is that each of these people left at their own volition and for their own reasons, and it had nothing to do with what system we are a part of.

Now, we are in the midst of recovering from a very traumatic moment. Cassia and her people accusing RR citizens of things they know are false. Many many attacks... But lies have short legs, as we say here in Brazil, and people are seeing that what was said is just unfounded propaganda...

In times of crisis one does not try to abruptly change the system. That is the voice of opportunism and not of reason. I do not see you as an opportunist, mind you. You are just passionate about your convictions and, naturally, when things go bad you link your beliefs to these things. So in an effort to save our Republic that you feel is in danger you suggest this to the Senate. I understand this. I have a firm belief that even though our opinions diverge, you are an honorable and good man. So I ask you please not to ask the Senate to pass something like this at such a time. Our Republic is young and is still stablizing. Wait and see what we can do in this system. Give this system a chance. We are unique in it and we are much more just and objective because of it. In Cassia's group censorship reigns. In NR we have seen many evils and expulsions. In the CDRR people have been expelled in mass without warning or cause... We have never suffered such things. Why? Because our system is Just. It protects our citizens.

So if in a few years it fails and shows to really be a bad thing I will support you fully in asking this. But I ask you now, at this moment, to be patient and give it a try. People spent years thinking this system through. Brutus himself has analysed decades of raw data from NR to find out what went wrong and how to fix it. This is the system that was born from the careful ponderings of our Founders. I am not saying to accept it at face value, to stop criticizing or anything of the sorts. Im saying to give it a chance. It deserves that much.

Vale,
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Re: PUBLIC DISCUSSION: Senate meeting (Session V)

Postby Gaius Florius Lupus » Sat May 06, 2017 11:18 am

Salve Philo Aureliane!

Okay, you are right that the magistrates and laws were not the trigger for leaving our Republic in these cases (perhaps with the exception of Niger), but each of them makes our "virtual" republican system now the main point of criticism against us. Nobody says "I left because my pride was hurt", they all blame it on our political system.

There is not even one instance where this political model has helped us, but it has caused a lot of damage to our reputation.
You are right that everybody has been dealt with in a very fair and just manner, but not because of our system, but in spite of it due to the outstanding morals of the persons who hold the highest offices, including you. But this will not always be like that. Imagine, if Cassia would habe held the office of Censor or Consul during the recent crisis, would she have handled the situation so properly or would she have abused her power driven by her anger in this moment?

Now with the " Templum" project we will have to deal with real authorities. Imagine if our representative in charge has to introduce himself with "Hello, I'm the Consul of Rome". They would laugh in his face. We will not be taken serious with these titles.

The only thing I ask for is a referendum. Let us ask the citizen, what they want.

Well, now the debate phase of the Senate session has passed anyway. It is too late to introduce a new topic. But let us keep this on the agenda for the next session or the Comitia Curiata. Perhaps the majority of the citozens approve the current system. This would then give new strength to the institutions.
At the moment we are attacked from all sides. The RA and the CDR, where we have now unfortunately lost our last member, use it to compare us to Nova Roma. NR themselves ridicule us for doing the same thing we criticized them. The RPR are jealous, because we do what they do, but more successful.
Let us not give them such an easy target for criticism.
We can do the same we do now with just the religious offices, a webmaster and the directors of the corporation who manage the money. We can use the historical Mos Maiorum as our laws forcing people to do historic research looking for precedents, when trying to make a point. We would not waste our time with procedures, and we could have votes with a simple Internet poll.
It only has advantages.

Vale!
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Re: PUBLIC DISCUSSION: Senate meeting (Session V)

Postby Quintus Furius Camillus » Mon May 08, 2017 8:25 am

Gaius Florius Lupus wrote:Salve Philo Aureliane!

Okay, you are right that the magistrates and laws were not the trigger for leaving our Republic in these cases (perhaps with the exception of Niger), but each of them makes our "virtual" republican system now the main point of criticism against us. Nobody says "I left because my pride was hurt", they all blame it on our political system.

There is not even one instance where this political model has helped us, but it has caused a lot of damage to our reputation.
You are right that everybody has been dealt with in a very fair and just manner, but not because of our system, but in spite of it due to the outstanding morals of the persons who hold the highest offices, including you. But this will not always be like that. Imagine, if Cassia would habe held the office of Censor or Consul during the recent crisis, would she have handled the situation so properly or would she have abused her power driven by her anger in this moment?

Now with the " Templum" project we will have to deal with real authorities. Imagine if our representative in charge has to introduce himself with "Hello, I'm the Consul of Rome". They would laugh in his face. We will not be taken serious with these titles.

The only thing I ask for is a referendum. Let us ask the citizen, what they want.

Well, now the debate phase of the Senate session has passed anyway. It is too late to introduce a new topic. But let us keep this on the agenda for the next session or the Comitia Curiata. Perhaps the majority of the citozens approve the current system. This would then give new strength to the institutions.
At the moment we are attacked from all sides. The RA and the CDR, where we have now unfortunately lost our last member, use it to compare us to Nova Roma. NR themselves ridicule us for doing the same thing we criticized them. The RPR are jealous, because we do what they do, but more successful.
Let us not give them such an easy target for criticism.
We can do the same we do now with just the religious offices, a webmaster and the directors of the corporation who manage the money. We can use the historical Mos Maiorum as our laws forcing people to do historic research looking for precedents, when trying to make a point. We would not waste our time with procedures, and we could have votes with a simple Internet poll.
It only has advantages.

Vale!
C. Florius Lupus



SALVE!

If you draft some sort of coherent and better alternative to the system we have now I'm happy to review it. If it makes sense to me I am open to calling the plebs to discuss it and vote upon its merits.

VALE!
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