On the unique situation of Cassia's founding of a "Roman Group"

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Re: On the unique situation of Cassia's founding of a "Roman Group"

Postby Procula Valeria Messalla » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:20 am

Numerius Antonius Paullus wrote:And as it is stated there. I am looking into it and I have also posted for those in the group that have been added in such a way. Of which I still don't know how it is possible. That they may be removed . I do apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused you.



I still ask the Praetors and Consuls to summon the court. These words ring shallow.
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Re: On the unique situation of Cassia's founding of a "Roman Group"

Postby Numerius Antonius Paullus » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:01 am

Procula Valeria Messalla wrote:
Numerius Antonius Paullus wrote:And as it is stated there. I am looking into it and I have also posted for those in the group that have been added in such a way. Of which I still don't know how it is possible. That they may be removed . I do apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused you.



I still ask the Praetors and Consuls to summon the court. These words ring shallow.



I stand by my words. However if you think it necessary to bring this to the courts. I will stand before the court and when it is said and done. I will adhere to whatever desires they wish be they in my favor or theirs.
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Re: On the unique situation of Cassia's founding of a "Roman Group"

Postby Marcus Flavius Celsus » Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:56 pm

Citizens of ResPublica! As Praetor Urbanus I strongly recommend refrain from expressing a negative opinion about any person who is somehow connected with this situation.

Few days ago we was in one organization like friends and colleagues. Yes, we all feel frustrated, indignant or even angry, because of the situation that has arisen. And best way to keep situation acceptable, wait until the passions will settled.

Simple - draw your own conclusions, and not to inflame the dispute between organizations. Do not arrange a "witch hunt", it will not lead to anything good.

Be good. With all respect, M. Flavius Celsus
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Re: On the unique situation of Cassia's founding of a "Roman Group"

Postby Marcus Flavius Celsus » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:12 pm

Procula Valeria Messalla

Domina Messala, I need to clarify that anybody who is added to your friends can add you to any Facebook group without admistrative or moderators rights. This is the mechanics of adding to this social network. You can look who is inviting you, here ( on PC) :
Image

Also as I see Numerius Antonius Paullus, not insulting anyone and stay calm in discussions. We didn't have any laws what regulate inviting our citizens in another roman organisation (also part of our magistrates have membership in another organisations ), so I don't see reasons to start a court. If you have more accurate data what laws violates Paullus, contact me through private messages on the forum or in facebook.

Please, stay calm. No need to kindle a conflict because of Cassia, or another organization. We already lost 2 our proper citizens, no need to push away more. This applies to everyone in this topic.
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Re: On the unique situation of Cassia's founding of a "Roman Group"

Postby Gaius Florius Lupus » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:11 pm

Salvete omnes!

First of all I would like to say that we should not make the same mistake as Nova Roma and declare other groups "competing organizations". Cassia Longina is not our enemy. And I like this idea of the new group to build a physical temple. I might even consider to join myself. But this has nothing to do with my citizenship in the Republic.

Nevertheless I agree with Brutus. And I am getting tired of people threatening with their resignation. An office in the Republic is supposed to be a serious business, even citizenship is a serious commitment. You do not just run away at the first sight of problems. It proves the wrong attitude towards our community. This is not an online RPG. Offering resignation is not a valid argument.
Some cives here seem to take things a little bit to lightly.

Cassia has shown a wrong attitude towards the Republic and her duties. However this does not make her our enemy. We just have to keep in mind that she is not really reliable when dealing with her.

It was a great mistake to accummulate so many responsibilities in one person. From now on this should change. It should not be possible to hold several offices at the same time (like lictor, aedilis, sacerdos, magister collegii). At the moment somebody can head up to three collegia and additionally be a magistrate. This should be reduced to one office only. So when the person suddenly resigns, the damage is only limited.

In ancient times nobody could resign Roman citizenship. Maybe we should do the same. Once a Roman, always a Roman. Let us keep these people in the database with all the dishonorable remarks about their carreer and their actions. So nobody can resign, only dishonor himself in his public records.

Valete!
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Re: On the unique situation of Cassia's founding of a "Roman Group"

Postby Caeso Cispius Laevus » Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:44 pm

Sal.

I join one of our founders, Lupus, in expressing my fatigue with some individuals.

DUTY - GRAVITAS - SELFLESSNESS - PERSEVERANCE - DEDICATION - RESTRAINT - HONOR - LOYALITY

These are key Roman virtues.

I am a Praetor. My job is to resolve and mediate disputes. Here in the Roman Republic we are fortunate to have a robust system for mediating disputes. It has worked well several times in the last year. Disputes are going to happen. 370 people will disagree, and some people will be bad apples. But if the virtues are remembered many disputes can be defused early and without consequence. The Roman virtues are beauty, they are what make us different from the beasts. They are what make us Roman.

Cassia did not once contact me for assistance. Not once! She dishonored every citizen in her resignation stemming from some private conflict with a private citizen. In resigning she slapped each of us in the face and immediately went off to found a new group with "Procurator" Paullus. She thought that lowly of us? She had that degree of respect for the Republic and its offices? Think of that for a moment.

Had she raised a complaint I would have investigated along with my friend and colleague Praetor Celsus. If her concern was legitimate we could have held a court session to resolve the dispute fairly. The Republic would not have been disrupted. Justice would have been fulfilled. Her honor would be intact. All would be well.

Cassia knew this was an option as she pursued such a resolution in the past. My predecessor, Propraetor Victor mediated a past private dispute raised by Cassia successfully. So her resignation lacked all the virtues above.

Such dishonor. I feel embarrassed for her in just reviewing the facts. As a Roman she is dead to me.
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Re: On the unique situation of Cassia's founding of a "Roman Group"

Postby Procula Valeria Messalla » Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:14 am

Marcus Flavius Celsus wrote:Procula Valeria Messalla

Domina Messala, I need to clarify that anybody who is added to your friends can add you to any Facebook group without admistrative or moderators rights. This is the mechanics of adding to this social network. You can look who is inviting you, here ( on PC) :
Image

Also as I see Numerius Antonius Paullus, not insulting anyone and stay calm in discussions. We didn't have any laws what regulate inviting our citizens in another roman organisation (also part of our magistrates have membership in another organisations ), so I don't see reasons to start a court. If you have more accurate data what laws violates Paullus, contact me through private messages on the forum or in facebook.

Please, stay calm. No need to kindle a conflict because of Cassia, or another organization. We already lost 2 our proper citizens, no need to push away more. This applies to everyone in this topic.



Praetor Celsus,

Lex Fabia says...

Civil Code

II) The following are valid claims upon which a court of competent jurisdiction of this Rei Publicae Romanae may grant relief:
a. Breach of a valid, enforceable contract;
b. A tort for negligence;
c. A tort for an intentional wrong;
d. A tort for strict liability;
e. A suit for the determination of ownership of property; and
f. Any of various suits at common law or at equity which the court in the interest of justice deems valid.

It is clear from Brutus' message that he frowns upon administrators of the Republic participating in this protest group. Therefore, Paullus adding me has hurt my chances at being elected to a future position in the Republic.

Please assist me in getting sufficient resolution for this concern and damage.
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Re: On the unique situation of Cassia's founding of a "Roman Group"

Postby Spurius Iuventius Catulus » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:43 am

Based on what little I know about the situation that gave rise to her departure, I am reluctant to cast too many stones at Cassia.

One can have concerns with the way it played out, but let us also be realistic: we're a non-profit, a discussion forum, and a social organization that facilitates the exploration of cultural interests. To put it on a higher pedestal -- e.g. treating it as a nation to which one can commit treason, etc. -- promotes neither the cause nor the organization. It just facilitates a higher intensity of drama within the organization and sows dissent among those who might be be members of one or both.

Roma Aeterna's aims seem noble. It's a different model from what we're doing here, which is all to the good given that not everyone wants to participate in a Republic-style group in order to interact with their coreligionists. At worst, I suppose one could set a high bar for the kind of documentation and planning one needs before contributing to the RA project if one feels that Cassia is intemperate or unreliable, but...well. That's an individual's choice.

(Disclosure: I became aware of RA via friends on another social platform, and have since joined them independent of this conversation.)
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Re: On the unique situation of Cassia's founding of a "Roman Group"

Postby Gaius Cominius Laenas » Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:02 am

Spurius Iuventius Catulus wrote:Based on what little I know about the situation that gave rise to her departure, I am reluctant to cast too many stones at Cassia.

One can have concerns with the way it played out, but let us also be realistic: we're a non-profit, a discussion forum, and a social organization that facilitates the exploration of cultural interests. To put it on a higher pedestal -- e.g. treating it as a nation to which one can commit treason, etc. -- promotes neither the cause nor the organization. It just facilitates a higher intensity of drama within the organization and sows dissent among those who might be be members of one or both.

Roma Aeterna's aims seem noble. It's a different model from what we're doing here, which is all to the good given that not everyone wants to participate in a Republic-style group in order to interact with their coreligionists. At worst, I suppose one could set a high bar for the kind of documentation and planning one needs before contributing to the RA project if one feels that Cassia is intemperate or unreliable, but...well. That's an individual's choice.

(Disclosure: I became aware of RA via friends on another social platform, and have since joined them independent of this conversation.)


The objectives are the same, pretty much, not different. You better believe that the Roman Republic plans to build temples and do all the things Cassia's group says they will do. It fits like a glove on our objectives in the Declaration.

To achieve these aims described the Res Publica Romana is dedicated towards the following objectives:

i) To represent the interests of those who partake and live a restored Roman culture and/or religion and all of its associated practices;

ii) To preserve and promote the unity of a worldwide community who self-identify as Romans;

iii) To coordinate and facilitate the scholarly recreation of ancient Roman culture and all associated practices, such as, but not limited to, religion, art, literature, philosophy, architecture, language, and history, as well as general education on these topics;

iv) To fund and support original academic research to further an accurate cultural understanding of ancient Rome;

v) To take measures to promote literacy and the regular use of the Roman language of Latin;

vi) To serve as a facilitator of a restored Roman Religion (Cultus Deorum Romanorum) in regards to public ritual and to assist and aid a restored, independent and active Collegium Pontificum;

vii) Assisting the Collegium Pontificum in promoting the public Cultus Deorum Romanorum within the Res Publica Romana national community. The Collegium Pontificum is to have a primary role in all affairs regarding the practice of the public Cultus Deorum and maintenance of the Pax Deorum. The Collegium Pontificum will also have a role within education on spiritual traditions relevant to the practice of the Cultus Deorum;

viii) To work with the Collegium Pontificum in promoting and teaching the ancient Roman public and personal virtues in all activities facilitated by the Res Publica;

ix) To provide both regional and worldwide community administration of a nation of Romans structured as closely as possible upon the principles of the ancient Roman Republic. National governance and logistical direction is to be provided by a Senate and magistrates. The assemblies of the Roman People are to be the highest governing bodies of the Res Publica Romana;

x) To promote high-quality reenactment events related to ancient Rome as a means of scholarship, outreach, and cultural expression and to provide a forum for reenactors to collaborate collectively;

xi) To act as a medium by which goods and services relating to the restoration and education of Roman culture may be sold and traded;

xii) To retain the ability to levy membership fees from registered members (citizens);

xiii) To work towards eventual establishment of a physical community, within existing international borders, where a member (citizen) has the choice of living, working, raising a family and socializing amongst other Romans if they choose;

This declaration in affirming the restoration of the Res Publica Romana guarantees the following:

i) In forming a nation of Romans the Res Publica Romana rejects violence, coercion or any other activity deemed illegal in pursuit of its aims;

ii) To reject all forms of discrimination, including, but not limited to that motivated by ethnicity, gender, country of residence, sexual orientation or faith practiced;

iii) To provide all Romans who are citizens of the Res Publica Romana a forum to communicate as a united community of Romans;

iv) The recognition of two millennia of advances regarding human and animal rights. In this recognition, we pledge to respect, support and promote human and animal rights at all times within our nation;

v) Regular elections by which those who hold membership (citizenship) may voice opinions freely;

vi) No citizen may be penalized by any member (citizen) operating in an official capacity on behalf of the Res Publica without having the opportunity to undergo a fair and transparent review and appeals process;

vii) To provide regular financial transparency by providing annual detailed reports to all registered citizens and to insist upon competitive bidding procedures for all contracts signed by national and regional administrations;

viii) To insist that all officials, including recognized pontifices/augurs and other such figures demonstrate procedural transparency at all times and to provide accurate and detailed records to all registered citizens upon request and to the general populace on an annual basis;

ix) The primacy of national spiritual leadership is to be held by a Collegium Pontificum. This leading role in affairs pertaining to the Cultus Deorum Romanorum is to be respected and protected;

x) The rejection of political extremism promoting intolerance. This includes but is not limited to any fascist political ideology;

xi) The official religion of the Res Publica is to be publicly that of the ancient Roman religion (Cultus Deorum Romanorum)

xii) The freedom to follow, discuss and practice any personal faith as a private member (citizen) without discrimination or harassment. Mutual respect and tolerance towards all faiths and spiritual practices are to be held in the highest regard; no one is to be regarded as less or more Roman based solely on their private personal religious practices;


Let us compare, shall we? Here are Cassia's objectives:

Our Goals:
1. To raise awareness and promote the study of the ancient religions and gods, in a safe and friendly environment.
2. To raise enough money to construct a temple and library, open to all.
3. To promote a modern adaption of ancient Roman culture.
4. To coordinate activity focused on the ancient cultures and to provide useful information.
5. To work towards an international community of likeminded people, conducting rites, promoting relationships with other organizations, hosting discussions, providing information, and organizing meetings.


Come now, did you read the respective objectives? They are almost 1:1. We are a non-profit Corporation, unlike Cassia's group. But more the reason why her resignation as a director in such an unprofessional manner is problematic.
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Re: On the unique situation of Cassia's founding of a "Roman Group"

Postby Gaius Florius Lupus » Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:05 am

I think Praetor Celsus is right. No harm was done by inviting others to this group. It is highly unlikely that this will have any effect on your further career in the Republic, Valeria Messalina, especially after you clarified your position publicly.

Roma Aterna is just a Facebook group, it is not a "competing organization". Our leges do not even know this term. Neither Cassia nor Paullus are enemies of the Republic. Antonius Paullus has not resigned. He understands his duties like a true Roman and only wants to avoid escalating the current situation. Cassia's resignation on the other hand was unjustified and showed poor judgement as well as a lack of certain virtues. Nevertheless she remains an important person in the worldwide Roman reconstructionist movement. It would be wise to maintain contact with her and to avoid hostilities. There might be future opportunities where we can cooperate with her and her group.

Those who joined Cassia's group are not taken away from our Republic. Apart from herself no other citizen has left the Republic after joining this Roman interest group on Facebook. There are many other Roman themed groups on Facebook. I am a member of several of them. This is not a matter of allegiance. I did it because I want to get information about Roman topics in my Facebook account. I assume this is the same for all the others. A Facebook group is neither a threat to us nor a protest movement against us.

What is important now is not alienating other friends of Cassia. We should focus on filling the positions that she abandoned and learn from the events. It is crucial for our Republic to avoid in the future that one person holds too many offices. So whenever a citizen is not able or willing to continue his duties it should not cause a crisis for the entire Republic.
Historically the accumulation of so many offices in one hand is what caused the downfall of the ancient republic. This was the way how the triumviri, Caesar and later Octavianus ruled. And this is not what we want.
I suggest the Senate looks into this issue.

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