On the unique situation of Cassia's founding of a "Roman Group"

The social and political heart of the respublica community

Moderators: Publius Iunius Brutus, Caeso Cispius Laevus, Titus Flavius Severus, Marcus Flavius Celsus, Lucius Aurelius Curio, Lucius Curtius Philo

Re: On the unique situation of Cassia's founding of a "Roman Group"

Postby Gaius Curtius Philo » Mon May 08, 2017 8:58 pm

Gaius Florius Lupus wrote:Recent events in the Roma Aeterna group should worry us.
In spite of their positive goals like building a temple, the group appeared suspicious from the beginning because of their outspoken stance against free speech. Accordingly they have already made an example of the first of their critics and banned him.
But now Cassia has deified her supposed ancestor C. Cassius Longinus, made herself priestess of his cult and declared cofounder Paullus and herself so called Augusti , which is the Latin title of the Roman Emperor.
This group of more than 200 followers is apparently glorifying the worst aspects of Roman civilization and the corruption of the Res Publica.
But what really worries me is the number of supporters who do not find anything wrong with it and accept it without criticism (Our Censor P. Iunius Brutus being the only positive exception).
What kind of people do we have in our global Roman community? How many modern Romans reject the achievements of democracy and Enlightenment and willingly accept Orwellian totalitarianism under a nice charismatic leader?
And I wonder how I could myself be so totally wrong about Cassia. She seems to develop more and more the insane character traits of Caligula. It might get extremely difficult to cooperate with Roma Aeterna.


This is what happens when organizations dont have rules or basic Checks and Balances. It reverts either to Anarchy or to Totalitarianism. That is what distinguishes the RR.
"Ignis aurum probat" - Seneca
C. Curtius L. f. Vot. Philo Aurelianus
User avatar
Gaius Curtius Philo
Propraetor
Propraetor
Senator
Senator
Feroniae Sacerdos
Feroniae Sacerdos
Lictor Curiatus Magister
Lictor Curiatus Magister
 
Posts: 1421
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:56 pm
Location: Praia Grande, São Paulo, Brazil

Re: On the unique situation of Cassia's founding of a "Roman Group"

Postby Publius Iunius Brutus » Mon May 08, 2017 9:40 pm

Brutus sal.

As I suspected much of the RA appears to be about egotism over community well being.

It really makes me sad to see people whom I once worked with go down such a path.

Truly the RA has much work to do before we could work with them. Frankly, their bylaws are illegal by any non-profit standard. Cassia is now claiming the RA is actually for profit. Who knows really. I get the sense that Cassia and Paullus really don't know what they are doing.

If the RR is to work with other groups, and I hope we do, groups like RPR and the non-corporate NR, and CPR are much closer to us in terms of values and goals.
User avatar
Publius Iunius Brutus
Censor
Censor
Senator
Senator
Martis et Minervae Sacerdos
Martis et Minervae Sacerdos
Lictor Curiatus Magister
Lictor Curiatus Magister
Augur
Augur
 
Posts: 1246
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2014 5:54 am
Location: Nova Gallia

Re: On the unique situation of Cassia's founding of a "Roman Group"

Postby Spurius Iuventius Catulus » Tue May 09, 2017 4:20 am

With all due respect, you're being ridiculous. I'm a member at RA as well as here, and can offer clarification on multiple points:

- There is no ban on free speech, written or practical.
- Daniel Beach was banned for being disruptive in multiple channels, and was asked many times by fellow temporary council members to dial it back before he was removed from the group.
- The sacerdotes of RA voted to include hero cultus as a recognized part of RA's religious umbrella. Yes, C. Cassius Longinus is among those recognized, but he is only one of several (e.g. Imperial figures, Alexander the Great, Orpheus, Heracles, etc.), and his inclusion was ALSO subject to a vote of the sacerdotes, as was her role as head of his cult. Participation in hero cultus -- and any religious expression -- is optional.
- "Augusti" is an honorary title awarded to Cassia and Paullus as founders in a proposed document. The title itself carries literally no political weight, and the only benefit appears to be that they could act in a consultant capacity long term. Furthermore, the document from which this comes has yet to be formally voted on because the council is still being elected. Clarification: this has been voted on by the temporary council. However, they are essentially guidelines to keep things moving until the elected council can move forward.

I'm not sure which is more absurd: the expectation that a group barely a fortnight old should have sprung fully formed with complete leadership and bylaws without a hiccup, or that members of an established group are so terribly threatened by that nascent group.

Roma Aeterna is. You can take issue with that all you like. And if in the end Res Publica Romana is superior to Roma Aeterna, then that will also be as it is. Regardless, perpetuating an endless cycle of drama with nonsense and exaggeration, however, doesn't make it so, and does this group no credit.
Spurius Iuventius Catulus
"The universe is change; our life is what our thoughts make it."
Procurator, Province of Missuria
User avatar
Spurius Iuventius Catulus
 
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:58 am
Location: Columbia, MO

Re: On the unique situation of Cassia's founding of a "Roman Group"

Postby Publius Iunius Brutus » Tue May 09, 2017 4:31 am

Spurius Iuventius Catulus wrote:
- "Augusti" is an honorary title awarded to Cassia and Paullus as founders in a proposed document. The title itself carries literally no political weight, and the only benefit appears to be that they could act in a consultant capacity long term. Furthermore, the document from which this comes has yet to be formally voted on because the council is still being elected.



Brutus Sal.

The RA did not form under circumstances that lend itself to good will. Despite this, I and others really have tried to give it the benefit of the doubt. Truly, I have attempted to provide advice, despite pretty much being told to take a hike.

The Augusti matter over there is not pretty. I reviewed the proposed document. It does carry power. The Augusti are involved in approving bylaws, dissolving the corporation etc. But this is their own internal matter...

I can't help but point one more thing out. Is it not ironic that a group that formed on the pretense that our "titles" are bad is then granting such grandiose and seemingly powerful positions? There is a touch of irony there that is hard to ignore.

Bottomline is that the RR is dedicated towards certain values in our Declaration. The RA seems to be interested in moving in a different direction. That is fine. But I think it is important that we continue to advocate for the principles outlined in the Declaration.

I also feel compelled to mention that the RR came founded on March 1, 2016 with its Declaration drafted and as an incorporated entity. It took a year of work preparing the RR for the public. If I was to provide any further advice to the RA, it would be for them to not go public until they actually know what they are doing and have their house in order. They should find a core group of people with experience and sort out their articles of incorporation, the location of incorporation, bylaws and so on. All this should happen before anything on facebook or on a website. Again, just my two denarii.
User avatar
Publius Iunius Brutus
Censor
Censor
Senator
Senator
Martis et Minervae Sacerdos
Martis et Minervae Sacerdos
Lictor Curiatus Magister
Lictor Curiatus Magister
Augur
Augur
 
Posts: 1246
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2014 5:54 am
Location: Nova Gallia

Re: On the unique situation of Cassia's founding of a "Roman Group"

Postby Spurius Iuventius Catulus » Tue May 09, 2017 5:49 am

Good for us, I suppose? Not all groups come into being the same way. Insisting that things happen just as we might do them is not an expectation that is likely to bring a person joy.

Honestly, the only thing that isn't pretty about the Augusti matter is the extent to which certain individuals have gotten their subligaculae in a twist over it. Not least because the title itself is at least partially tongue-in-cheek, which you should already know, given that you're a part of that facebook thread.

The current powers/roles of the RA Augusti according to the document -- which I stress again is not final -- are that they may act as consultants, replace/add (but not appoint) Contractores as needed, have a voice in the return of banned members, have some powers (with the council) with regards to RA property, and that dissolution of the group requires a unanimous vote that includes them.

They can also be stripped of that status by a vote.

I recognize your good intentions, and that you think there are better ways for RA to go about formation, but if you genuinely want to be involved, you might be better served by moving past all the ways you'd have done this differently and skip directly to the practical considerations of what's already in play. Right now, that's the formation of a council that will drive the real forward motion of the thing.

The group exists, and is by your own admission doing something different than we are. Is that a thing you want to be a part of or not? If it goes differently than you expect, can you accept that or no?
Spurius Iuventius Catulus
"The universe is change; our life is what our thoughts make it."
Procurator, Province of Missuria
User avatar
Spurius Iuventius Catulus
 
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:58 am
Location: Columbia, MO

Re: On the unique situation of Cassia's founding of a "Roman Group"

Postby Publius Iunius Brutus » Tue May 09, 2017 5:59 am

Spurius Iuventius Catulus wrote:Good for us, I suppose? Not all groups come into being the same way. Insisting that things happen just as we might do them is not an expectation that is likely to bring a person joy.

Honestly, the only thing that isn't pretty about the Augusti matter is the extent to which certain individuals have gotten their subligaculae in a twist over it. Not least because the title itself is at least partially tongue-in-cheek, which you should already know, given that you're a part of that facebook thread.

The current powers/roles of the RA Augusti according to the document -- which I stress again is not final -- are that they may act as consultants, replace/add (but not appoint) Contractores as needed, have a voice in the return of banned members, have some powers (with the council) with regards to RA property, and that dissolution of the group requires a unanimous vote that includes them.

They can also be stripped of that status by a vote.

I recognize your good intentions, and that you think there are better ways for RA to go about formation, but if you genuinely want to be involved, you might be better served by moving past all the ways you'd have done this differently and skip directly to the practical considerations of what's already in play. Right now, that's the formation of a council that will drive the real forward motion of the thing.

The group exists, and is by your own admission doing something different than we are. Is that a thing you want to be a part of or not? If it goes differently than you expect, can you accept that or no?



Brutus sal.

You raise some interesting questions here.

My opinion is that the RA document is actually not under compliance of any state or country incorporation regulations for a NPO. It does not really matter what they call the position. The privileges granted to the position are actually deeply problematic.

I have some experience here. I have founded a few corporations, both non-profit and for-profit professional corps. I deal with moving funds around personal corporations on a regular basis. I also know a few other things about the material we are dealing with, CDR and otherwise. I provided the RA solid advice. They didn't want it. That's fine. I'm not bothered or insulted. They are free people to make mistakes as they will. People are free to be stupid. But considering the advice I have provided, how it was heeded, and the direction the RA is drifting I don't see myself contributing further. It is a waste of time. I also think the direction of the RA is increasingly at odds with my own private views on the CDR.

This isn't out of spite. I gave them an honest shot. Please realize this. I just think the RA group is drafting into a place I personally don't want to be part of. It has to do with my own personal values and views.

Does that clarify my position amice?
User avatar
Publius Iunius Brutus
Censor
Censor
Senator
Senator
Martis et Minervae Sacerdos
Martis et Minervae Sacerdos
Lictor Curiatus Magister
Lictor Curiatus Magister
Augur
Augur
 
Posts: 1246
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2014 5:54 am
Location: Nova Gallia

Re: On the unique situation of Cassia's founding of a "Roman Group"

Postby Spurius Iuventius Catulus » Tue May 09, 2017 7:22 am

You're not wrong that the document has a lot of problems. Fortunately, as a writer, I can confirm that first drafts need only exist to be perfect; you fix them later. That will be the hard work of the council, and those they enlist to assist them.

I don't believe you're spiteful. However, you did walk into a fraught situation, and while you've been more moderate than some about the matter of Cassia's departure and RA, the standard for trust is higher for you than it might be for others. Intentions can only matter so much, and even doing something you think is helpful without asking and/or building that trust first can read as hostile.

Does that make sense?
Spurius Iuventius Catulus
"The universe is change; our life is what our thoughts make it."
Procurator, Province of Missuria
User avatar
Spurius Iuventius Catulus
 
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:58 am
Location: Columbia, MO

Re: On the unique situation of Cassia's founding of a "Roman Group"

Postby Publius Iunius Brutus » Tue May 09, 2017 7:31 am

Spurius Iuventius Catulus wrote:You're not wrong that the document has a lot of problems. Fortunately, as a writer, I can confirm that first drafts need only exist to be perfect; you fix them later. That will be the hard work of the council, and those they enlist to assist them.

I don't believe you're spiteful. However, you did walk into a fraught situation, and while you've been more moderate than some about the matter of Cassia's departure and RA, the standard for trust is higher for you than it might be for others. Intentions can only matter so much, and even doing something you think is helpful without asking and/or building that trust first can read as hostile.

Does that make sense?


Brutus sal.

I did what I could for the time to offer my help. Maybe the situation was impossible given the circumstances? Hindsight suggests this is the case. I don't think I fully appreciated the fundamental differences between the leaders of that group and myself. Now I suppose history will determine what happens with the RA. I'm not optimistic, but maybe I will be surprised.

Frankly, I've concluded the RA project is terribly tedious in its shifting structure and heading in a direction that interests me very little personally from a spiritual standpoint. Not much reason for me to care anymore.

This will probably be my final words on the matter for the foreseeable future.
User avatar
Publius Iunius Brutus
Censor
Censor
Senator
Senator
Martis et Minervae Sacerdos
Martis et Minervae Sacerdos
Lictor Curiatus Magister
Lictor Curiatus Magister
Augur
Augur
 
Posts: 1246
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2014 5:54 am
Location: Nova Gallia

Re: On the unique situation of Cassia's founding of a "Roman Group"

Postby Caeso Cispius Laevus » Wed May 10, 2017 4:37 am

This topic is locked. I think we all need to move on with productive projects and grow the res publica.
User avatar
Caeso Cispius Laevus
Praetor Peregrinus
Praetor Peregrinus
 
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri May 27, 2016 9:37 am
Location: Britannia

Previous

Return to Main Forum

cron