EDICTUM CENSORUM: Censorial Nota against Consul Lucius Curtius Philo

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Re: EDICTUM CENSORUM: Censorial Nota against Consul Lucius Curtius Philo

Postby Titus Flavius Severus » Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:49 pm

Severus Cen. sal.,

Lupus, amice, as you know, I have a different opinion on the question of legal maintenance from the national legislation in certain areas of activity of the Republic. Usually, I like to keep track of your public reflections on the theme of the Republic vs the Corporation. Now, however, your attack on the corporation completely baseless. The fact that the current Сensors (Brutus and I) were not elected by comitia curiata. Censors were elected by voting of people assemblies where were the same citizens like you and me. It seems that you start imagining the invisible hand or the evil specter of the Corporation in any accident.

Vale bene,
T. Fl. Severus
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Re: EDICTUM CENSORUM: Censorial Nota against Consul Lucius Curtius Philo

Postby Lucius Metilius Niger » Wed Mar 01, 2017 6:09 pm

Salvete omnes,

So I would first like to apologize to you because it was from my publication on the NR group that this quarrel between Consul Philo and the enemy Sulla took place. However, I welcome this because I believe that these debates are useful for the future of the Community, or our communities more precisely, and of the Cultus Deorum Romanorum in particular. It is for the CDR that I fight, and that I address my opinions, to you my brothers and sisters.

I believe that the Brutus Censor's Note is morally justified and good, but it is too easy, if I may say so, it morally exonerates your Republic, whereas it is from you that the quarrel started, citizens Philo And Maecenas, who took Sulla's side, taking advantage of one of his interventions. I do not forget that you voted the Law Iunia, which makes Sulla an enemy of your republic. I do not know Sulla, and I am willing to believe how bad it has been for the NR and for the whole community of the Romans. But to enact laws "anti" someone or something is for me the height of Hybris.
I know you have real reasons for voting these laws, and it was the vote that decided.

The problem is deeper for me, it touches directly on the concept and principle of virtual republics, which for me and with all my respect can not reflect the reality of one or more communities of cultors, or simple enthusiasts Of ancient Rome. Institutions, laws, magistrates' titles as "realistic" / "revivalists" may not have a real reality and legitimacy in the society / community of the twenty-first century. Not the way they were created, I think, whether it's NovaRoma at the start, the little RPR, or the beautiful RomanRepublic, where the wills of dynamic, enthusiastic, and honest people are very commendable. I'm sorry but it's still playing roles.

The (virtual) laws of the revivalist republics can not become real, effective. It's a lure.

Another aspect is already very difficult to manage a community in a country, so imagine in several! (Look at NR, with a head in the USA, another in Bulgaria), it is therefore essential to have a highly structured organization, based on legal functioning, and not institutions that have been missing for 1600 years.
Revivalist institutions do not have sufficient legal and legal basis to allow the perpetuation of such an organization, especially at the international level, as you know.
It is for this reason that evil, egotist, ambitious people regularly seize these revivalist institutions because they are illusory, they attract vain spirits, defile them, divide the community, they kill the Eternal Republic , The one that can not be reproduced, the true one, that which is in each of us all.
For if I am so critical of virtual republics, it means that for me they are killing the true republic, the one that existed, the one that exists in us in a sacred and not political way.

with all my friendship and respect to the Quirites.
Lucius Metilius Niger
 

Re: EDICTUM CENSORUM: Censorial Nota against Consul Lucius Curtius Philo

Postby Gaius Curtius Philo » Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:03 pm

We all "play roles" in all our lives amice. I play the role of "brother" to my two brothers. I play the role of "son" to my father and mother. I play the role of "law abiding citizen" in the country I live. I never understood how "You are playing a role" is in any way a valid argument in the proceedings of something. The question is: Does it work? So far it has.

Regarding legal basis: We have a strong legal basis. Sincerely we have SO MANY safeguards in place in the RR that it is virtually impossible for a Sulla to take over. You compare two instititions made in completely different basis. The people that made the RR have studied the History of NR for years. They made the instititions of the RR in a certain way so NOT to repeat the mistakes of NR.

Regarding the corruption of the "Real Republic": To be very honest and frank with you, for me this makes no sense whatsoever. You took an institution and made it some New Age ethereal concept. I would understand you saying ROME is in each and everyone of us. That I can accept as true. Romanitas. The Roman Values. The Roman Religion (for some). But the Republic? The Republic was an institution made by men FOR men. And so is our Republic. Dont make sacer something that is profanus. If I can call anything Hybris I'd say that is. Although I believe the concept of Hybris you use is almost the same as the christian "sin". You show a very christian inclination in this of which I disagree.

Our Republic has incentivized real life meeting of many people, real life exchanging of books, statues and other gifts. Our Republic has helped connect people of different continents and connect people in sparcely populated countries.

It might be hard for you to understand because you live in France, a VERY WELL populated country. But if you lived in the US, Canada or even my nativr Brazil, you'd discover that in these countries most cities are very small and very far away from each other. Canada itself is probably as big as Europe, if not very close to that... The RR is helping these people coordinate themselves and build their communities. So all in all I think you use the word "hybris" to such a degree that it loses all meaning and I think you are too focused in being afraid to "sin" that you ignore how many rites were promoted by the RR for the Gods already. We serve the Gods in our own way. We respect your way and dont call yo sinful for doing it. If you looked at us more closely and less lazily you might say the same.
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Re: EDICTUM CENSORUM: Censorial Nota against Consul Lucius Curtius Philo

Postby Lucius Metilius Niger » Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:02 pm

Lol no it's not "New age" or "Christian" ...
I'm just a Gallo-Roman Cultor who (try to) practice my religion Privata and Publica in real life.

it's also difficult for cultores in France to meet other people, so we practice the CDR very ponctualy, but I think it's better than nothing.
I understand people needs a space for communicate and solidarize themselves, that's what we use on the web too : fora for discussions, Facebook groups/pages etc
but my way of thinking is that Internet is just a tool for communicate, and share between people, not for legislate on virtual laws, for my humble point of view.
wathever, may the Gods smile on your republic, dear friends.
Salve.
Lucius Metilius Niger
 

Re: EDICTUM CENSORUM: Censorial Nota against Consul Lucius Curtius Philo

Postby Gaius Florius Lupus » Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:34 am

Salvete honorabiles magistrati!

Oops! It looks like I was wrong regarding the election of the current Censors, and they were indeed elected by the citizens of the Republic. Therefore I would like to express my deepest apologies. Under the given circumstances my objections are indeed pointless.

But I remembered that Brutus was also Censor during our first year.
Quote the Edictum Curiatorum: On the Election of the First Consul and Censor
Temporary Operating Procedure:
II. c. The office of censor will be held from the time the office is invested upon the individuals
by the Comitia Curiata until December 31, 2017
at 23:59 CET.


I obviously got confused and assumed from the above that the Censors were elected by the Comitia Curiata, i.e. the Board of Directors of the corporation. Somehow I missed the election of the Censors.
Sorry about that!
Well, at least I have learned a few things today. And there is dis immortalibus gratias no conflict between corporate and res publica officers.

A last remark regarding my opposition to the corporation.
I remember quite well the words of the last elected magistrate of Nova Roma who explained to me why the organization had failed:
Cæsar auto-proclaimed himself Dictator. I don't know if this is constitutional or not. In Ancient Rome, of course, nobody could proclaim himself Dictator and the Tribunes were untouchable. But you have to remember that we don't live in Ancient Rome. We live in a weird thing called NOVA Roma, which is not more and not less than a company. The administrators of the company can administrate it in any way they like.

These words should serve us as a warning. NR was not planned to end like this. They also thought they had checks and balances in place to prevent that anybody could hijack the organization. And it happened anyway. They claimed that a corporation was necessary to keep the assets safe. Later we found out that the most important assets, e.g. the domain name was actually in the name of Sulla personally, not in the name of the corporation. All the justification for the corporation had been a lie from the beginning.
May the gods prevent that this ever happens to us!

Salvete!
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Re: EDICTUM CENSORUM: Censorial Nota against Consul Lucius Curtius Philo

Postby Gaius Curtius Philo » Thu Mar 02, 2017 6:57 am

Yeah, the Censores of the RR have a two year period of office.

To be very honest, NR was made slopily and with very little thought on actually effective checks and balances. Hell, on the get go they had to put a Dictator in power to help solve the utter mess they were in. They really did not have effective safeguards and that is what put them in this mess. The RR has learned from NR's mistakes. To say the problem of NR was it being a corporation frankly sounds to me like saying the problem of Nazi Germany was that it was a Nation-State. That is an oversimplification my friend.
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Re: EDICTUM CENSORUM: Censorial Nota against Consul Lucius Curtius Philo

Postby Gaius Florius Lupus » Fri Mar 03, 2017 12:48 pm

To say that NR failed simply because it was sloppy organized is the oversimplification. NR has a 19-years history and the first year it went smoothly too.
In fact NR has the same elements that our Republic has. Their Board of Directors was the senate, ours the Comitia Curiata, different name, same thing.
The dictatorship happened because Sulla had convinced the senate (BoD) that legal circumstances for the corporation by the IRS required the creation of a executive committee of the senate. It had then exactly two members, Caesar and Sulla.
Then when the opportunity came, it was exactly this committee that declared the dictatorship.
If we allow the corporation to determine how our Republic has to work to comply with Canadian laws, then it is exactly the same that can happen. It will not change anything that our BoD has a different name (Comitia Curiata) than that of NR (senate). It will also not happen immediately, but it could happen in 15 or 16 years.
The Comitia Curiata should be dissolved like it was in ancient Rome during the early republic. The corporation should be under the supervision of a simple Quaestor and his scribae. This would make sure that the corporation will never mess with our affairs, and it would exactly be as the ancient Republic managed their treasury.

The analogy with Nazi-Germany is also not fitting, because the establishment of nation states was instrumental for it. If the Congress of Vienna (1815) had restored the Sacrum Romanum Imperium after the defeat of Napoleon instead of allowing it to be split up by nationalists. Nationalists took over the Italian peninsula, the Prussians filled the power vacuum by creating this puppet nation they called Germany and the result were two world wars. So it is a bad example and rather proves my point. Flawed concepts need to be stopped at their beginnings. The situation in NR could have been prevented by not having a corporation, Nazi Germany could have been prevented by restoring the HRE instead of a nation state system at the Congress of Vienna.
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Re: EDICTUM CENSORUM: Censorial Nota against Consul Lucius Curtius Philo

Postby Gaius Curtius Philo » Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:40 pm

The CC is fundamentally different from the Senate in the sense that it is not directly related to the Political Process. The CC hardly does anything. It has emergency powers and deals with our finance. To make the Senate the BoD was a horrible move because it gave Corporate power to the main political body of the Org. The way we do things permits the corporation to stay on the background while the Republic does all the work. Your suggestion would make so that the entire corporation stays in the hands of one person (a Quaestor) that changes yearly... not a safe idea.

And your argument on Germany is flawed because it can go back as far as a person wants. It is a fallacy intended on proving any point. I could just as easily say that the only reason Nation-States exist is because the medieval period created the conditions for them to exist. And someone else could say that the medieval system only existed because of the incompetence of the Roman System in keeping itself stable. And we could keep going back until the REAL culprate would be that DNA strand that was created in the primordial soup creating life lol
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