TRIBUNE CONCERNS FOR THE COMITIA CURIATA

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TRIBUNE CONCERNS FOR THE COMITIA CURIATA

Postby Quintus Furius Camillus » Sun Jan 01, 2017 8:32 am

SALVETE!

I am against the bylaw amendments creating the Mos Maiorum. I will not support this proposal and will fight it in all possible ways unless the following amendments are made. The voice of the people must be protected!

To become Mos Maiorum an edict must be Reissued and been in effect for 18 months before being eligible to become custom. Any eligible edict can then be ratified into the Mos Maiorum upon request of the Censores and majority support of the Senate and Comitia Curiata.

An alternative way for creating Mos Maiorum would be:

An edict is reissued twice and in effect for 30 months shall be automatically proposed to be Mos Maiorum unless such an edict is singled out for exclusion by the Censores, Senate or Curia within 6 months of the 30 month period ending.

Any edict rejected as custom but then subsequently reissued would not pass automatically to Mos Maiorum but would be treated as if it was being issued for the first time.
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Re: TRIBUNE CONCERNS FOR THE COMITIA CURIATA

Postby Tiberius Cilnius Maecenas » Sun Jan 01, 2017 9:28 am

I must say I agree with the Tribune.

Custom must be custom. Passing an edict, then co-opting it into custom without having it tested before the people is very dangerous.

Thank you Tribune for defending our system.
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Re: TRIBUNE CONCERNS FOR THE COMITIA CURIATA

Postby Gaius Curtius Philo » Sun Jan 01, 2017 9:39 am

I understand the concern, but Im not too convinced this is actually necessary. Let's look at the process in itself:

A person would first have to be an ELECTED REPRESENTATIVE of the People to make the Edict. Then this elected representative would also have to convince his collegue, also an elected representative, not to veto it. Then he'd have to convince all higher magistrates not to do so either, all elected representatives. This just for the edict.

Then he'd have to convince the ELECTED Censores to put them up as Mos, with none of the Censores opposing. Then they'd also have to secure that the majority of the CC is ALSO in favour...

Then for it to cause any damage it would have to NOT contradict any Leges or the Bylaws (which are both higher then it).... sincerely I DONT see any situation when this would actually happen in our current system.

For me it would just add another layer of complexity that truly isn't necessary. The rights of the people are well secured.
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Re: TRIBUNE CONCERNS FOR THE COMITIA CURIATA

Postby Tiberius Cilnius Maecenas » Sun Jan 01, 2017 9:49 am

Gaius Aurelius Victor wrote:I understand the concern, but Im not too convinced this is actually necessary. Let's look at the process in itself:

A person would first have to be an ELECTED REPRESENTATIVE of the People to make the Edict. Then this elected representative would also have to convince his collegue, also an elected representative, not to veto it. Then he'd have to convince all higher magistrates not to do so either, all elected representatives. This just for the edict.

Then he'd have to convince the ELECTED Censores to put them up as Mos, with none of the Censores opposing. Then they'd also have to secure that the majority of the CC is ALSO in favour...

Then for it to cause any damage it would have to NOT contradict any Leges or the Bylaws (which are both higher then it).... sincerely I DONT see any situation when this would actually happen in our current system.

For me it would just add another layer of complexity that truly isn't necessary. The rights of the people are well secured.


There is nothing about this that speaks to custom. Your proposal is just lex-lite.

Which Lictors will defend the voice of the people? Cassia? Hostilia? Vitellius?
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Re: TRIBUNE CONCERNS FOR THE COMITIA CURIATA

Postby Gaius Curtius Philo » Sun Jan 01, 2017 9:58 am

Tiberius Cilnius Maecenas wrote:
Gaius Aurelius Victor wrote:I understand the concern, but Im not too convinced this is actually necessary. Let's look at the process in itself:

A person would first have to be an ELECTED REPRESENTATIVE of the People to make the Edict. Then this elected representative would also have to convince his collegue, also an elected representative, not to veto it. Then he'd have to convince all higher magistrates not to do so either, all elected representatives. This just for the edict.

Then he'd have to convince the ELECTED Censores to put them up as Mos, with none of the Censores opposing. Then they'd also have to secure that the majority of the CC is ALSO in favour...

Then for it to cause any damage it would have to NOT contradict any Leges or the Bylaws (which are both higher then it).... sincerely I DONT see any situation when this would actually happen in our current system.

For me it would just add another layer of complexity that truly isn't necessary. The rights of the people are well secured.


There is nothing about this that speaks to custom. Your proposal is just lex-lite.

Which Lictors will defend the voice of the people? Cassia? Hostilia? Vitellius?


Why do you assume I wont defend the voice of the people, Maecenas? Im debating with you why this is necessary. If I vehimently disagreed I wouldnt be doing that, I would simply have voted in favour of the current version and stayed silent. I have served the People of this Republic for this year and have passed through too much stress and hardship on this job to be implied otherwise so think before you write...

Regarding it being Lex-lite; aye. The goal is to use it as a conflict resolution when there isnt a consensus on how to act.

Example: There is no current legislation regarding representation of the RR to other Orgs. Then there is a consensus that the Senate has the right to choose people to represent us to other organizations. As long as there is consensus we dont even need legislation, we act by the UNWRITTEN Mos. But then what happens if someone disagrees with this arrangement? Then and only then an Edict is made to decide upon this issue and, if it proves to be good, it will be put up as a written Mos so thst it can be enforced. This system basically permits an existance of the unwritten law together with the written one. This written Mos is simply a form of conflict resolution for when there is disagreement.

Now you say what you think of what I said and tell me why you think Im wrong. And i will read and see what I think. That way, we come to an informed decision and see what we should truly do.

That is a mature discussion, dont polarize something for granted...
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Re: TRIBUNE CONCERNS FOR THE COMITIA CURIATA

Postby Tiberius Cilnius Maecenas » Sun Jan 01, 2017 10:26 am

Honored Propraetor - I do not call into question your personal commitment or virtue. I do not doubt your abilities.

But we are in this for the long haul, right? What if the Comitia Curiata or Consuls are not great and honorable in 30 years? Your proposal creates a weakness in an otherwise wise and strong system.

I like the idea of unwritten mos maiorum still existing. This is true to our ancestors. Where is this in the proposed amendment?
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Re: TRIBUNE CONCERNS FOR THE COMITIA CURIATA

Postby Quintus Furius Camillus » Sun Jan 01, 2017 10:49 am

SALVETE!

What about my proposal?

If this proposal is not considered then I shall be forced to call the Concillium Plebis on the matter. We might not be able to veto the Comitia Curiata, but you can count on the people voicing their official opinion on this dainty amendment being proposed.

VALETE!
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Re: TRIBUNE CONCERNS FOR THE COMITIA CURIATA

Postby Caeso Cispius Laevus » Sun Jan 01, 2017 10:55 am

Sal.

Personally I quite like the proposal. I think it will greatly improve response times on key issues. Victor's comments on unwritten and written mos coexisting is also rather adaptive. Maybe you gentlemen can review the proposal again from this angle? We obviously all want what is best for the respublica.
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Re: TRIBUNE CONCERNS FOR THE COMITIA CURIATA

Postby Caeso Cispius Laevus » Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:04 am

Quintus Furius Camillus wrote:SALVETE!

What about my proposal?

If this proposal is not considered then I shall be forced to call the Concillium Plebis on the matter. We might not be able to veto the Comitia Curiata, but you can count on the people voicing their official opinion on this dainty amendment being proposed.

VALETE!


Camille sal.

I respect your passion and opinion.

Before any party proceeds I would like to hear from your colleague Tribune Laevus on this matter. Laevus are you available to comment here in the forum on this current discussion?
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Re: TRIBUNE CONCERNS FOR THE COMITIA CURIATA

Postby Quintus Furius Camillus » Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:15 am

Sure thing, what's on your mind my dear Sextius?
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