Minting coins for our Republic

The social and political heart of the respublica community

Moderators: Publius Iunius Brutus, Marcus Flavius Celsus, Lucius Curtius Philo, Caeso Cispius Laevus, Lucius Aurelius Curio, Titus Flavius Severus

Re: Minting coins for our Republic

Postby Marcus Aurelius Seianus » Fri Dec 02, 2016 7:49 am

Salve,
A concept,
After doing some cost comparison and research I came up with an average cost for producing coins for the Republic. These coins would be well made, and could be produced in vast quantity, with a minimum run of 250. At a base run of 250, we would have a $500 die fee (creation of the die to make the coins) and each coin would be roughly $2.70 each. Thats a total of $1175. The coins would be 14 gauge brass and 1 inch in diameter.

So, how to fund it, well we could create a funding account, where people "donate" to the creation of the coinage. If we sold the coins at direct cost, we would need to sell 435 to break even, but at $5 each, the number is reduced to 235.

Lastly, larger quantities offer significant price decrease, from $2.70 to $.73. But to get to the $.73 price point we are looking at 25,000 coins. That means at face value we would need to sell 18750 coins to break even, but again, at $5 each we would need to sell 5000. But at $5 each, we would make approx. $125,000.
Marcus Aurelius Seianus

Ordo Equester
Legatus Legio X Cohor III
Praefectus Legionus
User avatar
Marcus Aurelius Seianus
Governor of Eria
Governor of Eria
 
Posts: 93
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2016 1:46 am

Re: Minting coins for our Republic

Postby Decimus Aurelius Severus » Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:33 pm

I am ready to buy! :) :)
Decimus Aurelius Severus
User avatar
Decimus Aurelius Severus
Governor of Gallia Mississippia Pronvincia
Governor of Gallia Mississippia Pronvincia
 
Posts: 134
Joined: Sat May 14, 2016 10:47 pm

Re: Minting coins for our Republic

Postby Gaius Florius Lupus » Mon May 01, 2017 1:10 pm

Salvete!

Due to the renewed interest in this topic by the Senate, I would like to revive this thread.
Coins are cheap to make. We do not need a lot of things: an anvil die, a hammer die, and a really big hammer.
c3cb67ea970f32f8c867d4209f90b7b0.jpg
Hammer and anvil dies
c3cb67ea970f32f8c867d4209f90b7b0.jpg (85.49 KiB) Viewed 473 times

This is how it looks.
These would be a one time investment of a few hundred dollar. A lot of coins can be produced before the die wears off.

Of course we also need the raw metal disks. And their price depends on the material and whether we want to have the coins to have an intrinsic value (silver in case of the denarius) or just fix it against the dollar with virtually worthless material.

The mentioned prices for industrially produced coins are definitely too high. If the material has no intrinsic value, then the raw coins should cost not more than a few cents or even less than a cent. After buying the dies we just need a volunteer to hammer these coins and ship them when required. This would probably be the job of a Quaestor. Well, actually it would rather be the job of a servus publicus working for the Quaestor, but since we have a shortage of slaves at the moment, the Quaestor would probably have to do it himself.

The costs for this project are manageable. The Senate should rather address the question, whether the coins should have an intrinsic silver value or if they are fixed against the US dollar, if and how they could be redeemed. It is also important to establish a system how they relate to virtual denarii. Can a citizen withdraw his virtual denarii as physical coins? How can physical coins be deposited? This will require some changes of our online denarii transfer system.

We should not do this wrong and come up with a half-solution. If done properly, this could become something really big. It could become a real currency even with people who are currently not citizens of our Republic using it as a payment system and as protection against inflation and turmoil in the global financial system.
Please keep in mind that if we fix the value of the denarius by its intrinsic silver value, then we need to keep physical silver reserves for our virtual denarii. How to hammer this silver into coins is the smallest problem here. The same is true for freely exchangeable denarii fixed against the US dollar. In this case we need dollar reserves.

Of course we could go for the easy way and just sell some industrially produced souvenir medals and call them denarii, while the treasury pockets the profit from the sale. But this would be a missed opportunity for this project.

Valete!
C. Florius Lupus
User avatar
Gaius Florius Lupus
 
Posts: 469
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:33 am
Location: Colombia

Re: Minting coins for our Republic

Postby Gaius Curtius Philo » Mon May 01, 2017 4:07 pm

Gaius Florius Lupus wrote:Salvete!

Due to the renewed interest in this topic by the Senate, I would like to revive this thread.
Coins are cheap to make. We do not need a lot of things: an anvil die, a hammer die, and a really big hammer.
c3cb67ea970f32f8c867d4209f90b7b0.jpg

This is how it looks.
These would be a one time investment of a few hundred dollar. A lot of coins can be produced before the die wears off.

Of course we also need the raw metal disks. And their price depends on the material and whether we want to have the coins to have an intrinsic value (silver in case of the denarius) or just fix it against the dollar with virtually worthless material.

The mentioned prices for industrially produced coins are definitely too high. If the material has no intrinsic value, then the raw coins should cost not more than a few cents or even less than a cent. After buying the dies we just need a volunteer to hammer these coins and ship them when required. This would probably be the job of a Quaestor. Well, actually it would rather be the job of a servus publicus working for the Quaestor, but since we have a shortage of slaves at the moment, the Quaestor would probably have to do it himself.

The costs for this project are manageable. The Senate should rather address the question, whether the coins should have an intrinsic silver value or if they are fixed against the US dollar, if and how they could be redeemed. It is also important to establish a system how they relate to virtual denarii. Can a citizen withdraw his virtual denarii as physical coins? How can physical coins be deposited? This will require some changes of our online denarii transfer system.

We should not do this wrong and come up with a half-solution. If done properly, this could become something really big. It could become a real currency even with people who are currently not citizens of our Republic using it as a payment system and as protection against inflation and turmoil in the global financial system.
Please keep in mind that if we fix the value of the denarius by its intrinsic silver value, then we need to keep physical silver reserves for our virtual denarii. How to hammer this silver into coins is the smallest problem here. The same is true for freely exchangeable denarii fixed against the US dollar. In this case we need dollar reserves.

Of course we could go for the easy way and just sell some industrially produced souvenir medals and call them denarii, while the treasury pockets the profit from the sale. But this would be a missed opportunity for this project.

Valete!
C. Florius Lupus


Personally I fully agree Lupe. I think that this could be very good and useful for us. Probably the best solution would be to tie it to the Dollar at first. If we ever get enough funds to comfortably transfer it to silver we should, but that will probably take some time.

It might be good to at first sell the Denarii as a souvenir coin precisely to secure funds for such future projects though.

So maybe the best course would be:
Souvenir (fundraising) > Dollar-based > Silver-based.

This would make sure we actually have enough dollars in the treasury to actually support such a thing
"Ignis aurum probat" - Seneca
C. Curtius L. f. Vot. Philo Aurelianus
User avatar
Gaius Curtius Philo
 
Posts: 1581
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:56 pm
Location: Praia Grande, São Paulo, Brazil

Re: Minting coins for our Republic

Postby Manius Aquillius Lupus » Mon May 01, 2017 5:38 pm

SHIRE MINT POST would be the perfect people to contact for striking coins. They make all fantasy pieces for example like Game of Thrones, Lord of the Rings, Authurian stuff etc etc. If you're looking to replicate a Roman Republican coinage these guys would be the ones to have them make it.


MN. AQVILLIVS LVPVS
Manius Aquillius Lupus
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:08 pm

Re: Minting coins for our Republic

Postby Gaius Florius Lupus » Mon May 01, 2017 6:08 pm

Gaius Curtius Philo wrote:
It might be good to at first sell the Denarii as a souvenir coin precisely to secure funds for such future projects though.

So maybe the best course would be:
Souvenir (fundraising) > Dollar-based > Silver-based.

This would make sure we actually have enough dollars in the treasury to actually support such a thing

But going from souvenir to dollar-based or from dollar-based to silver based does not require any money. The only time money is needed, is when we buy the two dies and the hammer or hydraulic press or whatever.
So the three options are separate choices, not consecutive stages.
If we do the wrong decision in the beginning, it is extremely difficult to switch. Too many coins will be in circulation based on the souvenir system, so we cannot simply introduce a dollar standard.
If we need money for buying the anvil and hammer dies, then we should rather sell t-shirts or citizen IDs. When we are ready to introduce the coins, we have to get it right from the beginning or the whole project will fail. Nova Roma tried to start with these souvenir coins and it failed. How many are you expecting to sell? Nobody needs them. They cannot be used for anything. Perhaps some people will buy one to show it to friends. But this will never pay for the initial investment. There is a bigger market and profit range for t-shirts or Roman Republic flags than for coins.

We need to start with a real currency right from the beginning. Only this model will pay for itself.
User avatar
Gaius Florius Lupus
 
Posts: 469
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:33 am
Location: Colombia

Re: Minting coins for our Republic

Postby Gaius Curtius Philo » Mon May 01, 2017 8:44 pm



Makes sense, but Im not sure if your estimates on initial costs are correct amice.

Let us imagine all scenarios:
Silver Based - If we made the Denarius silver based we'd first need to buy silver and stock it. We'd need to buy a safe. We'd need to buy the actual silver. We'd need to have a safe place to store it. All this are costs. Then we'd have to be able to mint coins from this silver on demand and ship it. We'd also have to be able to receive deposits of silver coins through some form of shipping, quantify it and then resend the appropriate amount in dollars/other-currency back. More costs. Sincerely Id PREFER a silver based model but you'd have to help me see how it can be economically viable given that our treasury has only around 3000 dollars. Our resources are limited and it was handed to us in good faith by donners. We have a moral obligation in investing this money or utilizing it prudishly and effectively. Here Im only presenting the problem becaus I must admit my ignorance in how to overcome it. Do you have any ideas?

Dollar based - We'd need to go through the same costs of shipment, storage and conversion as the aforementioned, but at least there would be no cost in silver.

So you see there are a lot more costs involved than it seems at first glance. If you can find a solution to that I'd be happy to hear it amice.
"Ignis aurum probat" - Seneca
C. Curtius L. f. Vot. Philo Aurelianus
User avatar
Gaius Curtius Philo
 
Posts: 1581
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:56 pm
Location: Praia Grande, São Paulo, Brazil

Re: Minting coins for our Republic

Postby Procula Valeria Messalla » Tue May 02, 2017 2:19 am

Why coins?

Expensive to set up. Limited function at the present. Is this really the best use of funds?

Why not invest in $300 dollars of wood and sell a well constructed Lararium?

Why not sell Togas for cultores?

Why not sell lararium supplies?

Why not sell shirts and mugs which have zero start up cost? The TEMPLVM is already doing this?

Why not sell flags?


I don't get this fixation on coins. Very odd.
User avatar
Procula Valeria Messalla
 
Posts: 89
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 6:59 am

Re: Minting coins for our Republic

Postby Gaius Curtius Philo » Tue May 02, 2017 3:27 am

Procula Valeria Messalla wrote:Why coins?

Expensive to set up. Limited function at the present. Is this really the best use of funds?

Why not invest in $300 dollars of wood and sell a well constructed Lararium?

Why not sell Togas for cultores?

Why not sell lararium supplies?

Why not sell shirts and mugs which have zero start up cost? The TEMPLVM is already doing this?

Why not sell flags?


I don't get this fixation on coins. Very odd.


Those other things are all being prepared as well Valeria. But your concerns are fair. The main reason we are trying this project in particular is because a lot of people asked for it. Supply and demand, so we thought it would be good. But all those otjer things are also on the drawing board and questioning the finantial viability of the whole project is very valid. I'll put the question up to the Senate.
"Ignis aurum probat" - Seneca
C. Curtius L. f. Vot. Philo Aurelianus
User avatar
Gaius Curtius Philo
 
Posts: 1581
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:56 pm
Location: Praia Grande, São Paulo, Brazil

Re: Minting coins for our Republic

Postby Procula Valeria Messalla » Tue May 02, 2017 3:56 am

Gaius Curtius Philo wrote:
Procula Valeria Messalla wrote:Why coins?

Expensive to set up. Limited function at the present. Is this really the best use of funds?

Why not invest in $300 dollars of wood and sell a well constructed Lararium?

Why not sell Togas for cultores?

Why not sell lararium supplies?

Why not sell shirts and mugs which have zero start up cost? The TEMPLVM is already doing this?

Why not sell flags?


I don't get this fixation on coins. Very odd.


Those other things are all being prepared as well Valeria. But your concerns are fair. The main reason we are trying this project in particular is because a lot of people asked for it. Supply and demand, so we thought it would be good. But all those otjer things are also on the drawing board and questioning the finantial viability of the whole project is very valid. I'll put the question up to the Senate.



Thanks!

If it was me, I would do things in this order.

Shirts and other merchandise with zero start up cost -> sell lararium -> sell flags -> sell other things
User avatar
Procula Valeria Messalla
 
Posts: 89
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 6:59 am

PreviousNext

Return to Main Forum

cron