Bylaws of the Collegium

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Re: Bylaws of the Collegium

Postby Publius Sextius Laevus » Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:38 pm

Salvete Adamas et Omnes

The June 4th improvements of Adamas' below have answered my concerns. Though based on the June 5th post, would not 'collegarii' have one 'i'?

III. Omnes cives Romani volentes collegari Collegi Philosophici fieri utrum magistrum rogare debento. [All Roman citizens wishing to become members of the Collegium Philosophicum shall request admission from either magister.]

X. Liceto unicuique collegario collegium convocare nisi utri magistro displiceat.
[It shall be permitted to each and every member to summon the collegium unless this does not suit either magister.]

In support of Adamas' statement, the Bylaw Commitee (Lupus, Seneca, Adamas & Laevus) should concent on the intent of the Latin and the truthfulness of the English translation before it is put to the vote.

With the above improvement incorporated, but without the complete change in the whole document of 'collega' to 'collegarius' nor 'ii' to 'i' the proposed text stands at:

Constitutio Collegii Philosophici

A. Rationes

I. Hac constitutione Collegium Philosophicum ut collegium culturale Rei Publicae Romanae conditum est.
[By this constitution, the Collegium Philosophicum is founded as a cultural collegium of the Roman Republic].

II. Esto ratio et propositum huius collegii ut locum quaestionibus philosophicis disceptandis praebeat atque institutionem de scholis philosophicis classicis, praecipué de illis Platonis, Epicuri, et disciplinae Stoicae propaget.
[Let the motive and purpose of this Collegium be that it provide a place for discussing philosophical questions and hands down teaching about the schools of Plato, Epicurus, and the Stoic system].

B. Collegae

III. Omnes cives Romani volentes collegari Collegi Philosophici fieri utrum magistrum rogare debento. [All Roman citizens wishing to become members of the Collegium Philosophicum shall request admission from either magister.]

IV. Collega utri magistro approbandus est.
[A colleague shall be approved by either of the two magisters.]

V. Omnes collegae, qui cives optimo iure sunt, suffragium habent.
[All colleagues who are citizens ‘optimo jure’ have the right to vote.]

C. Regimen

VI. Habento duo magistri collegialiter magisterium Collegii et invicem vetanto. Sunto primi inter pares; pro Collegio loquuntor, deliberationes Collegio praeponunto; decernunto suffragia irrita esse, nam magistri moderatores Fori Collegii Philosophici sunt.
[Two magistri shall hold the office of magister of the Collegium, and shall have the right to veto one another. They shall be first among equals; they shall speak on behalf of the Collegium; and they shall put deliberations before the Collegium; They shall determine whether votes are invalid, for the magisters are the moderators of the Forum of the Collegium Philosophicum.]

VII. Suffragatores potestatem legiferam communiter habent.
[The voters have together legislating power.]

VIII. Magistri maiori parti eligendi sunt unum annum quod kalendis Ianuarii incipit.
[The magisters shall be elected by the majority for one year beginning on the Kalends of January.]

i. Si alterum munus vacat, alius magister collegium convocato et comitia habeto.
[If the office of one magister is vacant, the other magister shall convene the collegium and hold elections.]
ii. Si ambo munera simul vacant, unus quisque suffragator collegium convocare et comitia habere potest.
[If both offices are vacant at the same time, each and every voter can convoke the collegium and hold elections.]
iii. Si collegium et magistris et suffragatoribus careat, Aedili Curuli traditor ut status reficiatur.
[If the Collegium lacks both magistri and voters, it shall be handed over to the curule aedile so that its status might be restored].

D. Convocationes

IX. Liceto utri magistro Collegium convocare, quae convocatio illi una quidem septimana antea annuntianda est.
[Each magister may convene the Collegium, which convocation must be announced by him at least one week in advance.]

X. Liceto unicuique collegario collegium convocare nisi utri magistro displiceat.
[It shall be permitted to each and every member to summon the collegium unless this does not suit either magister.]

XI. Uni cuique collegae statum ‘optimo jure’ habenti rem ferre coram convocatione potest.
[Any colleague who holds ‘optimo jure’ status may propose a matter before the convocation.]

XII. Aliquid propositum collegi et erogatio pecuniae, praeter alio providetur, parte maiore suffragiorum indiget ut valeat.
[Any proposal of the collegium, and request for funds, except as provided elsewhere, needs the majority of the votes in order to prevail.]


E. Moderatio

XIII. Rixae inter collegas privatim placandae sunt, vel parti maiori, magistris intercedentibus, si necesse sit.
[Quarrels among the members are to be placated privately, or, by the majority, with the magistri interceding, if need be.]

XIV. Ob nefas contra rationes constitutionemve collegii, vel morem maiorum pars dodrans suffragiorum collegam expellere potest.
[For violations of the principles or the constitution of the Collegium or the Mos Maiorum three quarters of the votes can expel a member.]

XV. Collega expulsus adversus talem expulsionem ad Aedilem vel Curulem vel Plebeium, si plebeius sit, appellare potest.
[An expelled member may appeal to the Curule or Plebeian Aedile, if he is plebeian, against such an expulsion.]

F. Dissolutio

XVI. Collegium cunctis collegis consentientibus dissolvi potest. Si collegium sic dissolvatur, denarii sui Aerario Populi Romani dantor.
[The Collegium may be dissolved if all members agree. If the collegium is dissolved in this fashion, its denarii shall be given to the treasury of the Roman People].

G. Emendationes

XVII. Maior pars suffragiorum hanc constitutionem emendare potest.
[The majority of the voters can amend these bylaws.]

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Re: Bylaws of the Collegium

Postby Gaius Curtius Philo » Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:39 pm

Horatia amica,

The Optimo Iure status is one that defines that the person is up to date on their civil duties and have not committed any wrong doing in the Republic. That translates in manners in which one can lose Optimo Iure Status:
I) Not voting at least once a year
II) Receiving it as a temporary punishment by the magistratus conditioned by denarii payment
III) As a penalty in the courts of the Republic.

Basically, it means you are in good standing with the community.
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Re: Bylaws of the Collegium

Postby Gaius Curtius Philo » Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:40 pm

In section B all references of Collegae should be changed to Collegarii no?
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Re: Bylaws of the Collegium

Postby Gaius Florius Lupus » Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:47 pm

Salvete collegae!

Adherence to the proper procedures of democracy should be a sacred matter. The debate has been closed and a vote has been called, but several members of the Collegium have decided to ignore these procedures and to continue with the debate.
Against the majority I am apparently powerless to insist in the proper procedures. I see no other option but calling off the vote and apologizing to the immortal gods.

I therefore suggest to reopen the debate and whenever you might come up with a final version, please publish it complete in the Latin version and a complete translation and let me know, or in case this takes longer than December, let my successor know, so a new vote can be called.

Regarding the Latin issues discussed:
1. A single -i in the genitive ending for nouns with -ium (e.g. collegium) is extremely odd. This is not standard Latin as it is taught in any textbook, even if it might have been used in republican times. It would be very confusing for anybody except Latin experts to use such a non-standard spelling. I strongly advice against it. We should consistently use "collegii" for the genitive singular.
2. "Collegarius" is also an extremely rare word that sounds awkward. It was certainly not used in classical literature. If I am mistaken, please quote an example! The word "collegium" is derived from no other word but "collega". Otherwise it would be a "collegarium". Yes, it means co-worker, and this is exactly the meaning as it was used in ancient collegia. Because a collegium was a community of co-workers and most collegia were not communities of pontifices and philosophers, but communities of craftsmen. This is where the collegia came from originally. I strongly advice against this awkward word " collegarius".

Apart from the use of the imperative future instead of subjunctive, which was indeed common in codified laws, I am not convinced that any of the suggested changes are an actual improvement. They add a meaning, which was not intented originally. The draft before was shorter, more elegant and better applicable to the actual procedure. The new changes specify details that should not be specified.
E.g. no new member requests permission from one or the other magister. He clicks an application button and an e-mail goes to both magisters. The one who approves it first, is the one who approves and it is done. The original draft did not go into technical details like the new changes.
If you look at historical Roman laws (e.g. Twelve Table Law), they avoid too many details, but try to capture the spirit of the law. This is the Roman way. And it allows for a far more elegant wording.

Enough for today! Feel free to extent the debate as long as you wish!
Another example of our Republic getting nothing ever done and instead having disputes without end or result about things that nobody else cares about.

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Re: Bylaws of the Collegium

Postby Lucia Horatia Adamas » Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:37 pm

L. Horatia Adamas P. Sextio Lævo C. Curtio Philoni C. Florio Lupo omnibusque collegariis S.P.D.

Philo, yes, I do think it would be better to change 'collega' to 'collegiarius' in the proper grammatical form. Many thanks for the explanation of 'optimo jure!'

Læve, no, unless you are referring to the genitive singular. in the nominative plural, both i's were used. Only in the genitive singular was a single i present. In the sentence in question, collegiarii is nominative, the subject of a passive verb, fieri. In XIV, however, there should be a single i. After dinner, I may get time to respell the text.

In the fully archaic period (Plautus, Terence, etc.) lots of interesting things happened; servos was nominative singular (short o; long ó in the accusative plural), the present passive infinitive ended in -ier (laudarier, to be praised), and there were several other goodies we had to learn in order to read Roman comedy, etc. Cato's work requires a thorough knowledge of the future imperative; it seems to be his personal favorite form of the Latin verb.

Lupe, 'collegiarius' is listed in the Oxford Latin Dictionary, the best unabridged Latin dictionary in any language. Unlike Lewis and Short, the OLD confines its listings to the classical period. Indeed, it may be rare, but 'collega' is not frequent, and the OLD citations seem to be confined to the meaning of 'co-worker' and the like. 'Sodalis' may well be more common for the meaning intended among us. As for not teaching the single-i genitive in any textbook, you are in error; that is used in the elementary textbooks I used in high school, which are very conservative. It is the pre-Augustan form of the genitive of such words. To quote Allen and Greenough's Latin Grammar, §49 b., 'The genitive of nouns in -ius or -ium ended, until the Augustan Age, in a single -i, as "fili," of a son; Pompei, of Pompey (Pompeius), but the accent of the nominative is retained: as 'ingéní, of genius. Footnote 1 to this reads 'The genitive in -ií occurs once in Virgil [sic], and constantly in Ovid, but was probably unknown to Cicero.' The Gildersleeve and Lodge grammar notes that the genitive singular ending in -í (long i) continued until the first century A.D.

I don't think it will take until December to settle this matter…but as we learnt in sociology class, instant gratification is a hallmark of the vulgus. Let's get this right, THEN vote on it.

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Re: Bylaws of the Collegium

Postby Gaius Florius Lupus » Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:13 am

Genitive singular -ii or -i

The form "collegi" is unusual to say the least. A quick Internet search gives results only for the perfect of the verb "collego". The overwhelming number of text books has the genitive singular with -ii.
I am aware that archaic Latin was different, but here we enter the question of standardization. Latin as we write it today was standardized in the Middle Ages. In classical Latin we would neither have punctuation nor lower case letters. The whole text would be written in an uninterrupted line of capital letters without line breaks and perhaps with an occasional dot to separate words. In republican times Latin was not yet standardized and even Caesar and Cicero used contradicting spelling.
If we use archaic forms, we would confuse normal Latin readers. None of the text book that I use has collegium, collegi. Even when I look the word up in several websites be it nihilscio.it or Wictionary it only gives collegium, collegii.
The Catholic Church uses the formula "In nomine patris et filii et spiritus sancti". And this is the single most used and best known formula in the whole Latin world.
It would be a bad and misleading choice to use this non-standard form of the genitive singular that was not in use for at least 2000 years.

Collegiarius

The word "collegiarius" is primarily an adjective. It might have in rare cases be used as noun. In any case it is not in K.E. Georges' "Ausführliches lateinisch-deutsches Handwörterbuch" of 1806, which I use and which is the most complete Latin-German dictionary. And there are certainly more dictionaries in the German language than in the English language, since Latin was official language in the HRE, but not in the UK.
Lewis and Short were based on a German translation for example. But even this dictionary only knows this word as adjective. And while the OLD is just a 20th/21st century book written in a time when Latin was dying, Lewis and Short as well as K.E. Georges were written, when Latin was still in widespread use. So the competence of the OLD may only surpass the older books when it comes to rare oddities, but I rather trust the older books when it comes to common Latin vocabulary, compared to these modern revisions.
Latin Dictionary Net lists 2 or 3 citations for collegiarius (genitive listed with-ii by the way), but has collega as one of the top 2000 words of the Latin language. It was actually so common, it appears in every single Romance language and even in English and German.
If we use collegiarius, we would be the Collegiarium Philosophicum. And if we use sodalis we would be a sodalidas, which was a different type of organization in ancient Rome.
"Co-worker" is exactly what we want it to mean, because collegia were guilds. This is the nature of a collegium, a guild of co-workers. The use of any other term would be unhistorical.

Deviations from standard Latin would make the text unreadable for non-historians or non-linguists.
We had a good and elegant version of the texts. Let us not destroy it by odd spelling and rare vocabulary like bad-style Renaissance writers did to impress each other!

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Re: Bylaws of the Collegium

Postby Lucia Horatia Adamas » Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:39 am



L. Horatia Adamas C. Florio Lupo collegiariis omnibus S.P.D.

Many textbooks do use the double i, placing themselves chronologically in the Empire rather than the Republic.
Those employed in Catholic schools, and the RC Church, tend to use a late form of Latin, which is why (inter alia) 'sacramentum' does not mean 'military oath,' it means what we call 'a sacrament.' There is no surprise that the Roman Missal uses the double i genitive. I'm pretty sure my altar missal does as well. (For those wishing to learn something about the history of Latin, I recommend the Rudimenta Latina course I hope to offer in the Fall; its textbook, too, will provide a lot of information in an easy reading style. The title is A Natural History of Latin, by Tore Janson).

I don't think that every spelling of Latin forms is included in Google, but the anomalous ones certainly are included in the highly-regarded OLD, which has far more citations than other lexica. Cicero used 'fili' and such; are you claiming that the Pontifex Maximus of the Latin language, the supreme stylist held as a model for all Latinists, was archaic? I don't theenk so.

I am familiar with the writing systems of Latin; Avitus provided us with some fine samples, which I include in my courses, even the traditional ones. When we read the texts of Plautus and Terence (whose manuscript is the oldest example of surviving ancient manuscripts--and beautifully written in rustic capitals) as they were, not standardized to the later format. When I studied Livy, the text used the two-way division, not the four-way one, or even the common three way distinction: u represented u and v, i represented i and j. Some Cicero texts do this as well. Retaining the archaic forms is more important, however, in the poets, as the standard classical ones do not always scan. Standardization is not always desirable, whether ancient texts or modern humans are concerned.

The OLD was not written in a time when Latin was dying. Quite the reverse. Latin is very alive today, partly because of the OLD and the large numbers of citations it gives for the listed items, which also are very helpful in ascertaining their use. Its less Victorian translations of certain vocabulary found in the likes of Juvenalis and Martialis are also helpful for those reading that type of material, much of which does not appeal to me. I am not the first person who said this, or who praised this dictionary; the major Latinists do as well. One I respect highly, who is literate in 15 languages and familiar with Latin lexica in all of them which have such works, encouraged us to purchase and use this tome. He was right about its value, too.

'Collegiarius' is listed as a substantive in the OLD. The late genitive accompanies it, but for those thinking about consistency, one should use the single i genitive if other similar words use it in a given text.

We had a version of a regula which required some therapy to clarify it. Those who read modern Latin will not be confused by such things; neither sclopeta nor gestabilia nor interretia nor tromocratae will terrify them. Modern Latinists use vocabulary from all periods of Latin; often that is necessary to avoid circumlocutions of prodigious length. Some of us, too, like a more precise word when possible; 'collegiarius' is more specific than 'collega,' or even 'sodalis.' Ain't nuthin' wrong with this word, Lupe. Thou seemest to protest too much.

Vale, et valete.

BTW, 'sodalitas,' not 'sodalidas.' Add that we are not a guild, but a group with similar interests.
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Re: Bylaws of the Collegium

Postby Gaius Curtius Philo » Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:45 pm

Regarding the latin I'll defer to you guys. I have no authority on the matter. Although personally I am used to the double -ii genitive so I prefer it, but it is up to you guys. If those are the only "problems" in the text then I think we're fine lol
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Re: Bylaws of the Collegium

Postby Gaius Florius Lupus » Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:51 pm

Even Iulius Caesar used the -ii genitive:
De Bello Gallico:
Nisi quid in Caesare populoque Romano sit auxilii, omnibus Gallis idem esse faciendum quod Helvetii fecerint, ...


I would suggest to settle the "collegiarius" issue by providing a classical example where the word was used in this meaning and not as adjective. An argumentum ad verecundiam alone is a logical fallacy.
Etymologically collegium is an abstract noun formed from its members, the collegae. Collegiarius is an adjective formed from the same word. "Collega" was first, the other words followed. Groups of collegae started to refer to the community as collegium. Collegiarius means "belonging to a collegium". " Collegiatus" would actually be even better than "collegiarius". This word is at least known to be used in the Code of Theodosius with such a meaning. (collegiatus in collegio naviculariorum)
Using "collegiarius" would be just as awkward as calling a colleague "collegial one" in an official English text.
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Re: Bylaws of the Collegium

Postby Gaius Florius Lupus » Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:15 pm

I have found a quote by Cicero where he uses the word "collegae" for members of a collegium. This should settle the issue for good.

M. Tullius Cicero: Orationes
Pro P. Sulla

Quid? Autronio nonne sodales, non collegae sui, non veteres amici, quorum ille copia quondam abundarat, non hi omnes, qui sunt in re publica principes defuerunt?


Cicero calls here members of sodalitates "sodales" and members of collegia "collegae".
Collega is the correct name for our purpose.
We are formally a guild, otherwise we would not be a collegium. The Collegium Philosophicum is the philosophers' guild of the Republic. Being a collega means being member of this guild. Those who have only an interest in philosophy can post in the forum without formally joining the collegium.
This distinction is important, because the lack of it even confused Sextius Laevus, since a former draft had even the word participes instead of collegae. So Sextius Laevus was absolutely right to request a clarification about who would be allowed to post in the forum. This kind of confusion would never had occurred, if the original word collega that everybody understood would not have been changed unnecessarily.
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