[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4855: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4857: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4858: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4859: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
Roman Republic: Res publica Romana • View topic - Is the Universe "Sacred"? What are the Gods?

Is the Universe "Sacred"? What are the Gods?

The purpose of this collegium is to establish a group for those interested in ancient philosophy and a place where philosophical discussion and study may take place. Join at: http://romanrepublic.org/civitas/joint_ ... sophiae/42

Moderators: Marca Marcia, Gaius Flavius Aetius, Paullus Aemilius Gallus, Aula Flavia Philippa

Re: Is the Universe "Sacred"? What are the Gods?

Postby Gaia Cassia Longina » Wed Nov 23, 2016 3:31 pm

Salvete,

Light speed is possible and so far, so is warp travel. So is this idea of multiple universes. This is now leaning towards a more scientific realm wherein I can have no concrete say - I am not a scientist and will not even venture to call myself that! Haha! Anyway, how can we say that the Universe is not one?

We have proven that atoms are not the smallest, indivisible parts that Epicurus thought ("atom" literally means unable to divide). So, what makes us think that we can't go smaller (we can) - or bigger? Take atoms and put it on scale with the Universe: we have atoms - we are made of a multitude of things, just as the Universe is made up of a multitude of things - planets, galaxies, etc. So how can we say with certainty, that just as atoms are to us, planets are to the Universe? Just imagine! While they cannot "communicate" with one another, neither do our atoms, so to say. They have no idea what our others parts are doing - but they still manage to make a whole!

Continuing, I believe fully in the Gaia Hypothesis (which if you do not know, you should read up on, it is truly fascinating). So if Earth does it - why can't the Universe? It is constantly recycling, creating, and ridding itself of things every second!

Also, I absolutely think there is other life. I used to study astronomy, believe it or not and I can say that it would almost be mathematically impossible for us to be the only ones.

Furthermore, when discussing Epicurus' idea that Lupus brought up: I read it that he is discussing time more - not so much speed or even on the same plane. Time is different than what I believe he is discussing. We need time, even if it is imaginary. If we simply skip time, we will end up in our final state whether we do so by time or not! But without time, we would seem to just simply end up there - without any way to tell that we had time in the middle. Confusing, right? (:
Gaia Cassia Longina
 

Re: Is the Universe "Sacred"? What are the Gods?

Postby Gaius Florius Lupus » Wed Nov 23, 2016 4:15 pm

The onus probandi is on those who propose that there is such a thing as a warp bubble. What is proposed without evidence can be refuted without evidence.

And Epicurus was not wrong about atoms being indivisible. The scientists who called isotops "atoms" were wrong. They took the term from Epicurus/Democritus not the other way around. The term atom implies that it is indivisible. Therefore Epicurus referred to particles, not to what later scientists wrongly called atoms and what we call as such today. Epicurus' atoms are the particles of today's standard model of particle physics.

By "communicate" with each other, I do not mean "talking with each other", it means having a causal interaction. It is a necessary condition for an entity that there is a causal interaction among its parts.
If the brain orders the hand to be lifted, then there is "communication" between the atoms of the brain and the atoms of the hand, even if the atoms themseves are not aware of each other. Such a commnication/causal interaction is not possible between all parts of the universe. They are forever separate due to the expansion of the universe. An event in one part of the universe will never have any effect or ever be perceived in another sufficiently distant part of the universe.
This is a totally different situation from what we know in our daily lives.
The clue to understanding the universe is understanding the nature of infinity. And so far Epicurus came closest to it.
User avatar
Gaius Florius Lupus
 
Posts: 595
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:33 am
Location: Africa Magna

Re: Is the Universe "Sacred"? What are the Gods?

Postby Gaius Curtius Philo » Wed Nov 23, 2016 4:26 pm

"Ignis aurum probat" - Seneca
C. Curtius L. f. Vot. Philo Aurelianus
User avatar
Gaius Curtius Philo
 
Posts: 1591
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:56 pm
Location: Praia Grande, São Paulo, Brazil

Re: Is the Universe "Sacred"? What are the Gods?

Postby Gaius Florius Lupus » Wed Nov 23, 2016 8:18 pm

Yes, you are correct.
In order to disprove pantheism the onus probandi is on me.

Well then, let me disprove the existence of warp bubbles.

The assumption of warp speed rests on the premise that while nothing can move faster than light, the space between two objects can be created (or stretched) without speed limit, so that two objects that remain in their position will move farther away from each other with a speed higher than that of light due to the space stretched out between them. The theory of cosmic inflation is based on it for example.
Now here comes the logical flaw:
This theory assumes essentially that there is a kind of cosmic ether to which an object has a certain position and speed. However this theory has been disproved by Einstein's theory of relativity.
He found out that there is no absolute position in space, no absolute coordinate system. Movement and position can only be given in relation to another object (or inertial system)
Therefore space is not some kind of ether or medium in which objects are moving, space is nothing but the distance between two objects.
Therefore the speed limit of c (lightspeed) cannot simply be circumvented by claiming an object remains in a fixed position and only the space between two objects increases, which would be possible without a speed limit. stretching space between two objects is identical with having two objects moving away from each other. There is no such thing as a fixed position in space. No two objects can ever move faster away from each other than the speed of light. Stretching space is not a distinct phenomenon from moving away from each other. Therefore the theory of relativity applies here too. It is not an exception.
As a result we can discard the theory of cosmic inflation, which is in contradiction to relativity as well as warp bubbles.
There is a speed limit of causality, Epicurus explained its logical necessity and no modern scientist has found a valid way around.
The speed limit of causality, which has been proven to be a priori true, together with the expansion of the universe, which has been found a posteriori true by empiric observation, in conjunction prove that not all parts of the universe are causally connected. From this we can deduct that a single universal consciousness cannot exist, quod erat demonstrandum.

This is my proof against pantheism.

Now some of us may ask: "What, for Minerva's sake, has all this to do with philosophy?"
Well, this is what is called "natural philosophy". It is what today has become known as "science", but what is originally one of the three stoic disciplines of philosophy, the other two being logic and ethics.
So even if this all sounds like it belonged rather into a forum of theoretical physics, it is very well on topic.

Valete!
User avatar
Gaius Florius Lupus
 
Posts: 595
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:33 am
Location: Africa Magna

Re: Is the Universe "Sacred"? What are the Gods?

Postby Gaius Curtius Philo » Wed Nov 23, 2016 9:32 pm

Rightly said Lupe! This is as much philosophy ad everything else we debste here. But then explsin this to me, why does it seem that the universe is expanding faster then the speed of light? Can you explain why this is false?

This article speaks of it https://www.google.com.br/amp/amp.space ... id-samsung

Can you prove it to be a falacy? I am very interested in the development of this discussion!
"Ignis aurum probat" - Seneca
C. Curtius L. f. Vot. Philo Aurelianus
User avatar
Gaius Curtius Philo
 
Posts: 1591
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:56 pm
Location: Praia Grande, São Paulo, Brazil

Re: Is the Universe "Sacred"? What are the Gods?

Postby Tiberius Publicius Gracchus » Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:53 am

I realize that many Cultors would frown upon occult practices. Nevertheless, I have dabbled in the occult, and trust me, distance has no meaning when practicing magick! In whatever dimension it works in, I do not believe space has any meaning. It is debatable exactly what is going on when someone is practicing magick, but whatever it is, it can affect change at a distance. This is done by focusing on whatever change you would like to see happen in the world, and sending the intention out into the Universe. Although there are entire books on what herbs to use, and books that treat spells like recipes, the truth is all you need is your mind. I realize that this is a very controversial subject for those who practice the Cultus Deorum, and that the Romans themselves frowned upon the use of magick, but I believe that this an appropriate discussion to bring it up.

Now, if humans could do that, the Gods certainly could. Most physical matter in the Universe might be dead, but the spirit which animates the Universe, which resides in a higher spiritual plane, is alive, and inhabits every part of the Universe simultaneously. Other Gods and Goddesses inhabit the pockets of life which exist in the Universe. I do believe in the Gaia hypothesis, and believe we are in for it. Strange weather we have been having with the North Pole 30 degrees above normal and Siberia super cold. Humans may have triggered something that is entirely beyond our control. In these times it is important for each of us to establish a relationship with the Gods, and with Gaia. I believe that having a relationship with your Lares, Manes, and Penates is important. They want to have a relationship with you!

I would be surprised if someone invented a warp drive. But even if they did, we humans are part of this world. We cannot live on any of the planets we have explored long term, not without bringing everything we need from home. Even if we did reach a planet capable of supporting life, that does not mean we would be able to breath the atmosphere, or eat the plants or animals on that planet. And we would have no immunity to any pathogens that might exist on those planets. Any why would the Gods and Goddesses of that planet want to have a relationship with us, being invaders from another planet? It is likely they would be fighting against us the entire time, and I don't think you could survive for very long if all of the Gods of a place are against you. So humans will have to learn to live in harmony with this Earth, or we will go extinct. If we learn to live in harmony with nature, we could fulfill an important role, protecting our Earth Mother from threats such as asteroids. Perhaps that is why we are here.
Tiberius Publicius Gracchus
 
Posts: 50
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:02 am

Re: Is the Universe "Sacred"? What are the Gods?

Postby Gaius Florius Lupus » Thu Nov 24, 2016 12:12 pm

Victor, amice, you are really good! You found the weak spot in my argument. Indeed modern cosmologists assume that distant parts of the universe can disappear beyond the event hoizon, because they move faster away than the light. I even used this argument above to prove that parts of the universe are unreachable for any cnsciousness.
However, as you pointed correctly out, this would prove that moving faster than light and the existence of warp bubbles are possible.
This is indeed the established scientific view today. It still would be hard to explain how this universal consciousness keeps in contact with all itsparts through wormholes and warp bubbles.

Personally I think this model is wrong, because it clearly violates Special Relativity. When the speed of expansion reaches the speed of light at the event horizon, several effects set in, which make the crossing of the horizon impossible, Lorentz transformation (space itself shrinks to zero), time dilatation (time freezes to a standstill), the energy needed to expand the universe to this speed would become infinite.
What intead happens is a horizon effect. All of the universe that is about to reach the horizon is squeezed together untill it is zero, the red shift becomes infinite. This means, it simply becomes dark and it becomes impossible to receive any information from it.
Something similar happens at the event horizon of a black hole due to General Relativity. Steven Hawking, the famous black hole prophet, finally admitted in recent years, that there can be no black holes as such, since no matter can cross the event horizon of it, but the chaotic situation at the horizon make it appear as such

The result is the same in my explanation. Parts of the universe become unreachable at the horizon and disappear forever. But I do not need faster than light speed and violations of Secial Relativity for my model. This means no warp engine.
Modern cosmologists disagree with me here. They do not want to discard the possibility of wormholes and warp bubbles and need speeds faster than light in their model. Apparently they refuse to see the self-contradiction in their model. On the one hand hey use Special Relativity as explanation for their model (exempli gratia the red shift of remote galaxies), on the other hand they bluntly violate Special Relativity by including speeds faster than light.

Either way a single consciousness for the universe would be hard to imagine. We all agree that there is an event horizon, which consciousness cannot simply surpass. In order to propose such a single consciousness, we would need to explain how wornholes and warp bubbles are used for that purpose and why none of these mechanisms is visible in our surrounding, although it is supposed to be part of this universal entity.

Publicius Gracchus mentioned spirit to exist beyond the visible universe and not to be bound by its laws.
I would like to add the following: If spirits can have a causal connection to the physical world, then these effects must be detectable. This would make them subject to empirical science. If they are undetectable, because they have no effect on us, then they are not part of our world, totally separate and therefore irrelevant.
You cannot have it both ways, having effects on this world, but not scientifically intelligible. It is either both or none of it.

There is actually one phenomenon, which is not subject to speed limits and physical causality: quantum entanglement.
Maybe we have to look for a universal consciousness here. However its principle unpredictability makes conscious will somehow impossible.

Valete!
Florius Lupus
User avatar
Gaius Florius Lupus
 
Posts: 595
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:33 am
Location: Africa Magna

Re: Is the Universe "Sacred"? What are the Gods?

Postby Gaius Curtius Philo » Thu Nov 24, 2016 3:03 pm

"Ignis aurum probat" - Seneca
C. Curtius L. f. Vot. Philo Aurelianus
User avatar
Gaius Curtius Philo
 
Posts: 1591
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:56 pm
Location: Praia Grande, São Paulo, Brazil

Re: Is the Universe "Sacred"? What are the Gods?

Postby Gaius Florius Lupus » Thu Nov 24, 2016 3:39 pm

Sic est!
That pretty much summarizes our current knowledge of the state of affairs.
User avatar
Gaius Florius Lupus
 
Posts: 595
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:33 am
Location: Africa Magna

Re: Is the Universe "Sacred"? What are the Gods?

Postby Gaia Cassia Longina » Fri Nov 25, 2016 12:20 am

Gaia Cassia Longina
 

PreviousNext

Return to Collegium Philosophicum

cron