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Roman Republic: Res publica Romana • View topic - Is the Universe "Sacred"? What are the Gods?

Is the Universe "Sacred"? What are the Gods?

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Re: Is the Universe "Sacred"? What are the Gods?

Postby Gaius Curtius Philo » Fri Nov 25, 2016 12:46 am

I don't think Lupus is implying there is no macro-consciousness in the Universe. I believe he is saying that there is no one macro-consciousness spanning the entirety of the Universe. But parts of it? Sure.
"Ignis aurum probat" - Seneca
C. Curtius L. f. Vot. Philo Aurelianus
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Re: Is the Universe "Sacred"? What are the Gods?

Postby Gaia Cassia Longina » Fri Nov 25, 2016 1:33 am

I know - and I am pointing out my argument on the other side! (:
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Re: Is the Universe "Sacred"? What are the Gods?

Postby Gaius Florius Lupus » Fri Nov 25, 2016 11:03 am

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Re: Is the Universe "Sacred"? What are the Gods?

Postby Gaia Cassia Longina » Mon Nov 28, 2016 11:09 pm

Salve Lupe,

I do not think that Stoic philosophy needs an Epicurean overhaul. Like me, I believe that the two can work in harmony. While atoms exist and their nature being random, Stoic "harmony" is needed to keep these atoms in line and not scatter about!

Stoic philosophy also offers comforts that Epicurus does not - such as Fate, if one finds that comforting, and balance. This means, that both Stoic and Epicurean philosophy may be right, or both can be wrong! Just as Epicurus would say, the truth may not be objective, so does that mean he is right or he is wrong? As for the Universe, there is definitely harmony and balance, you cannot deny, so does that mean the Stoics may have gotten something right? Maybe!

C Cassia Longina
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Re: Is the Universe "Sacred"? What are the Gods?

Postby Tiberius Publicius Gracchus » Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:28 am

I finished Cicero’s the Nature of the Gods. I have to say I was not convinced by any of the arguments presented in the work. In previous posts I summarized the arguments of the Epicureans, and found myself disagreeing with them. I had though the Stoic position would be more to my liking but found the arguments to be not at all that convincing either. In fact, I have heard these arguments before, in Atheist vs. Christian debates of all places. I believe it is entirely possible that this world and this universe came into being by entirely natural processes, and that humans evolved through the process of natural selection. That would explain why the world seems so perfectly suited to us. We evolved on it. You take us from our planet and put us on another world and we would die instantly without a space suit. I don’t know how the Gods got here, but it makes sense that they are part of the natural order just as we are. They can’t break the laws of physics any more than we can. They are more powerful than we are, but do not have infinite powers. It might seem to us that there is some kind of Stoic harmony to the Universe, but that might be because there hasn’t been a supernova close enough to our solar system to wipe out all life. There have been asteroid strikes that came close, and what humans are doing to the Earth might trigger something just as deadly.

There are a few points in the last book, that is, the criticism of Stoic philosophy that caught my attention. I am using the Oxford translation. Cicero writes for many pages about how the Gods who created humans gave us reason, that is, the ability to use our minds to solve problems, but did not give most people a strong enough moral compass to not use our minds to do evil things. I believe this is very true. I believe that most of the problems in this world are caused by people doing things while giving very little regard as to how their actions will affect others. The whole incident at Standing Rock comes to mind. That pipeline will make a small number of people very wealthy, and should that pipeline leak and poison their water, it would not affect the water that the owners of that pipeline would be drinking. They don’t care because they have no reason to care. If that pipeline is stopped it won’t be because some God makes it disappear, it will be because people put political pressure on the powers that be to stop, or at least reroute the pipeline. In the meantime, we all continue to burn fossil fuels, even though it is causing the climate to change in very adverse ways. I don’t believe any God has the power to stop us unless we decide as a species to stop.

So why do I believe in Gods? Well, mostly because of personal experience. As I was seeking them out I witnessed some amazing coincidences. Symbols and animals associated with Gods and Goddesses appearing in my life. When you look for these things, you start to find them. The Romans used to take Auspices before making any major decisions, but apparently, they let reveal themselves even when not directly asked. I have had some Rune readings that were amazingly accurate. In addition to this, I have been able to feel energy. For me it is a slight tingling in my hands. I have felt the energy in plants and trees, and even in rocks. The Roman religion did not approve of magick, but I have used it on occasion, and have always gotten what I asked for. I am very careful to not try and force my will upon a Goddess or God. Doing so is very rude in my opinion.

While I do not believe the Gods have infinite power, and cannot stop humans from doing things that have terrible effects on themselves and the rest of the Planet, I do believe they can help us out when asked. The Romans were able to hold on to the Empire for many centuries, until they stopped asking for the God’s help. I do not believe the God’s punished the Roman state, merely that they stopped helping them. The Roman Empire collapsed in the West, although in the East, it survived until 1453, when the Turks sacked Constantinople.
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Re: Is the Universe "Sacred"? What are the Gods?

Postby Tiberius Publicius Gracchus » Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:28 am

I finished Cicero’s the Nature of the Gods. I have to say I was not convinced by any of the arguments presented in the work. In previous posts I summarized the arguments of the Epicureans, and found myself disagreeing with them. I had though the Stoic position would be more to my liking but found the arguments to be not at all that convincing either. In fact, I have heard these arguments before, in Atheist vs. Christian debates of all places. I believe it is entirely possible that this world and this universe came into being by entirely natural processes, and that humans evolved through the process of natural selection. That would explain why the world seems so perfectly suited to us. We evolved on it. You take us from our planet and put us on another world and we would die instantly without a space suit. I don’t know how the Gods got here, but it makes sense that they are part of the natural order just as we are. They can’t break the laws of physics any more than we can. They are more powerful than we are, but do not have infinite powers. It might seem to us that there is some kind of Stoic harmony to the Universe, but that might be because there hasn’t been a supernova close enough to our solar system to wipe out all life. There have been asteroid strikes that came close, and what humans are doing to the Earth might trigger something just as deadly.
There are a few points in the last book, that is, the criticism of Stoic philosophy that caught my attention. I am using the Oxford translation. Cicero writes for many pages about how the Gods who created humans gave us reason, that is, the ability to use our minds to solve problems, but did not give most people a strong enough moral compass to not use our minds to do evil things. I believe this is very true. I believe that most of the problems in this world are caused by people doing things while giving very little regard as to how their actions will affect others. The whole incident at Standing Rock comes to mind. That pipeline will make a small number of people very wealthy, and should that pipeline leak and poison their water, it would not affect the water that the owners of that pipeline would be drinking. They don’t care because they have no reason to care. If that pipeline is stopped it won’t be because some God makes it disappear, it will be because people put political pressure on the powers that be to stop, or at least reroute the pipeline. In the meantime, we all continue to burn fossil fuels, even though it is causing the climate to change in very adverse ways. I don’t believe any God has the power to stop us unless we decide as a species to stop.
So why do I believe in Gods? Well, mostly because of personal experience. As I was seeking them out I witnessed some amazing coincidences. Symbols and animals associated with Gods and Goddesses appearing in my life. When you look for these things, you start to find them. The Romans used to take Auspices before making any major decisions, but apparently, they let reveal themselves even when not directly asked. I have had some Rune readings that were amazingly accurate. In addition to this, I have been able to feel energy. For me it is a slight tingling in my hands. I have felt the energy in plants and trees, and even in rocks. The Roman religion did not approve of magick, but I have used it on occasion, and have always gotten what I asked for. I am very careful to not try and force my will upon a Goddess or God. Doing so is very rude in my opinion.
While I do not believe the Gods have infinite power, and cannot stop humans from doing things that have terrible effects on themselves and the rest of the Planet, I do believe they can help us out when asked. The Romans were able to hold on to the Empire for many centuries, until they stopped asking for the God’s help. I do not believe the God’s punished the Roman state, merely that they stopped helping them. The Roman Empire collapsed in the West, although in the East, it survived until 1453, when the Turks sacked Constantinople.
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Re: Is the Universe "Sacred"? What are the Gods?

Postby Gaia Cassia Longina » Mon Dec 19, 2016 3:23 pm

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